Novel Anyone Have A Successful Debut Novel?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by frigocc, Feb 24, 2019.

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  1. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I feel like writing success is pretty hard to nail down. Most traditionally published books lose money individually, and are just a part of the machine that leads to sweeping hits for the publishing houses. If someone backs you and doesn't make their money back, but you got paid, are you a success? You wouldn't say it was if you were making sprockets or apps or electric cars, so why books?

    So if not money, what?

    Orson Scott Card (everyone's favorite person) says a successful book is one that a single person, not related to or friends with the writer, reads and enjoys (which is actually hard to get). I mean, a book gets traditionally published if a few of the right people like it, so if anyone who doesn't owe you anything likes it, you're not far off the mark.

    We talked about this on here recently, but I still don't think writing for fame is a very good motivation that will carry someone through the long process of getting good. I think people have to want to write and enjoy the process of writing, for a long time, to get good. I'm sure a few talented people are like "I'm going to be a famous writer" and sit down and write something, get signed, and make it on the first try, but that's not common.
     
  2. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry, @frigocc, but you are getting way ahead of yourself. You've got an idea, but it's all going to come down to execution and an insane level of dedication. Writing a novel isn't going to make you rich quick or probably rich at all. And the fact that you say you already expect some level of validation for something you haven't even done yet... Let's just say this industry is not kind.
     
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  3. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, I'm aware I have to finish it first and it won't make me rich. I just don't want to put 2+ years of dedicated work into something that only 10 people ever see. If I was writing just for me, couldn't I just keep it all in my head? The very act of writing is for other people.
     
  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Two years is nothing and the majority of people who try to make it as writers fail. So, it's probably going to take longer than you think and the odds are stacked against you. That's just how it is. But if something is compelling you to write, I see know reason not to try. You can always stop. There's no commitment except one you set. You have control over your story and when and how you tell it. Success is completely out of your hands. It's silly to look for some sort of guarantee there will be a payoff.
     
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  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Eh...I'm not far from two years into my WIP, and there's no particular reason to assume I'll sell it. I hope to sell it--it's no longer the throwaway writing-practice exercise it was when it started--but it's still definitely against the odds. I suspect the odds are a bit higher for the second one, and a bit higher for the third, assuming I keep finding useful ways to work to get better, but there's no assurance I'll ever sell anything.

    I'm not saying that isn't depressing. Just that that's the way it is.
     
  6. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Don't disagree with you. And I know there no guarantee, I guess I'm just looking for success stories. Like most people here, I do want my novel to sell well, though. I want to do everything I can to increase the odds of that happening.
     
  7. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    I gotcha. I know it's easier to sell later novels. It's just that, of all my story ideas before, I've never been as excited about one. I don't want to waste the idea. If written well, I think people would keep reading on (if it was put in front of them).
     
  8. Reece

    Reece Senior Member

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    You don't seem terribly passionate about this. I don't know that I would want to read a book that was written by someone who had this kind of perspective. Unless you are some kind of savant, you cannot keep a book in your head. You can keep ideas in your head, but you will not have a book. Once you start writing your ideas down, they change and grow and morph into something grander that the sum of their parts. Writing is for other people, but I feel like it really needs to be for yourself as well. If you start off with a terribly pessimistic attitude and lofty ideas of what make it a worthy endeavor, it will show. I feel like you are angry at the prospect of having to put in the work, and it doesn't sound like you are going to enjoy the process at all. So why exactly do you want to do it if you don't enjoy writing?
     
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  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Remember that the first novel you write doesn't have to be the first novel you sell. I don't know, offhand, of any reason why you can't write this one, put it in a drawer, get better, and come back to this one.
     
  10. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Oh I'm definitely passionate about it. But I don't like the idea that I have to pretend I don't want to make money with it. That's completely normal. Doesn't mean it's all I care about.

    I understand what you're saying, and I truly enjoy writing (which is why I'm so excited about this idea).
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    it depends - principally on did you capture a good proportion of the 5k on to your mailing list - if you caught say 20% of them spending 500 to get 1000 people on to your list isn't too bad - next time you launch a book a decent proportion of those people will buy and make up the 500. Also if you get a good number of good reviews out of those 5k sales you could say that was worth the net 500 loss to drive more sales later. (also if you have a series its likely that a decent proportion of people who buy book 1 will also buy book 2,3,4 etc and that read through will more than cover the apparent loss)

    In addition to all that it also depends on your definition of success and whether its defined in commercial terms. I wouldn't consider a loss maker successful (unless it delivered in other ways) but your mileage may vary
     
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  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    This is a myth peddled by vanity publishers and, more recently, self-publishing evangelists. I don't blame you for believing it as they're convincing! Most trade published books do indeed make a profit. The misunderstanding may have arisen from the fact that many debuts don't earn out their advance, but they will be turning a profit for the house long before they begin to earn out. The author has also profited, of course.

    It's still true that the big blockbuster novels allow the publishers to swallow the small number of non-profitable books they buy, and we should all be grateful for that because it allows publishers to take a chance on debut authors and to publish books they know have a relatively small market.

    Sorry for the derail. I just think it's important to counter these myths, which were invented by people who don't have writers' best interests at heart.
     
  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    from a self pub perspective marketing is increasingly about advertising - the days where you could make good organic sales off having a social media presence are waning (unless you have a specific niche particularly for non fiction and to a lesser extent some fiction genres)... of course effective advertising via Amazon, bookbub, facebook or whatever also means having good product, good covers, good blurbs that convert, writing good ad copy and so on

    You can in time build a decent mailing list following and market to them effectively by email, but generating the list in the first place also requires advertising, selling books etc (if you build it entirely from promos and giveaways it will be low quality and not convert effectively to sales)

    its all stuff you can learn to do (or hire done) - but if you don't want to invest time and to an extent money in learning it you are probably better off going trad where they will (depending on the deal) do at least some of the marketing for you
     
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  14. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    How long are they going to last?

    ...

    Way I see it @frigocc you need to invest properly and to the edge of death. Maybe a pamphlet emerges on the market that you can wave on your death bed? A book possibly arrives when you've been cold for six years. This isn't a game you can play on your mobile phone. Sure, self-publishing exists for self-publishing. But it's not like real sex.
     
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  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Just to be a bit more optimistic... it IS possible to make reasonable money from writing books. My first book would probably be classed as a success by most standards... it's still my damn best-seller... and it's made me a little over $15K, with little bits still coming in from it. But that's been over the course of a lot of years, and I've been WRITING OTHER BOOKS the whole time.

    It's not impossible to be the writer with a huge breakout first novel that sets her up for life, but it's really, really, REALLY unlikely. Most authors grind it out in the midlist for most or all of their careers, and they grind. Like, lots of stupid little promo ops, LOTS of books published, etc. And it's still really rare for anyone to make enough to quit their day jobs unless they have a financially secure spouse.

    The idea of writing one book and just sitting back and letting money roll in? Nothing's impossible, but that's not a path I've seen anyone find since I've started with all this.
     
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  16. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Can't disagree there. And I'm not necessarily looking to make millions from a book. I know that's unrealistic. I guess it's just that I fear I won't be able to write other novels with ideas that I like as much as this one, so I'll never write another one.

    Hell, even ideas I have for sequels or standalones usually have to do with outerspace, and that comedic setting was already done with Hitchhiker's Guide.
     
  17. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Counter away!
     
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  18. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Interesting stuff in this thread! I think once I complete my book (the obvious first step before worrying about this stuff), I'll look towards traditional publishing. Honestly, would need the marketing help. My only concern is that the vulgarity in my novel might make it harder to publish. Think Hitchhiker's Guide mixed with Wolf of Wall Street.
     
  19. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    My advice is to write it with the goal of making it the best novel you can. Worry about publishing it once you've seen the final product.
     
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  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Its a good thing Rob Grant and Doug Naylor didn't think that

    outer space is big and theres definitely room for more than one author
     
  21. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    I know there's room, it's just the kind of story I want to tell might not be original enough. Sure, there are space novels, but how many British-style comedic space novels that parody real-life tropes are there? I actually have something similar in mind for a sequel, but hesitant to do it.
     
  22. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    @frigocc I think the best thing you can do for your writing right now is forget about what will happen once it's finished and just finish it. Maybe there's a slim chance of selling a manuscript that ends up really similar to the Hitchhiker series. Maybe it'll find an editor who adores Hitchhiker's and would love to publish another humorous space adventure. None of us can tell you. The only certainty is that, if you don't finish the darn thing in the first place, there is zero chance of it selling.

    So just write!
     
  23. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    @frigocc, just write, at this point. The reality of self-publishing is that the average author will sell a few hundred books at most, over the life of the book. That said, you can do much better than that, and I have. But a hundred books a month, as someone cited, is a very high target, and even then, will not bring in much money. Like @Tenderiser said write, for yourself, then see how much work you want to put into marketing it.
     
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  24. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    You guys are right. Besides, I believe I have an idea for how I want my story to end, and for a sequel. So my fears about selling my one and only novel might be unfounded. I believe I could make it into a series.
     
  25. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    No I haven't. I'm not in any hurry to publish because I'd rather publish something of merit than any of my current crap.

    But success in any art is hard to nail down. Some writers are famous but not good writers, so would you class them as successful? Successful at selling maybe, but not in writing a good novel.
    Others, you look up their work and the reviews are poor and most of those reviews are by review companies, who have received a free copy for an "honest" review and even those reviews never go above a two or three star. Success or not?

    My idea of success if me actually finishing a novel and not hating it so much I'm embarrassed to let anyone see it.
     

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