Hi, I am new to the site! I recently started work on a high fantasy story, and I have been wondering if my characters are any good? The world is based on medieval England, (I actually think the world resembles that of the Song of the Lioness books, although with much less magic.) It is a coming of age story for some of the characters, although not all. It includes a number of complex family relationships, that can be a bit hard to understand. A war is late involved, as it the line of succession. My worry is that my characters are to like thoes of other people. Do the characters themselves make sense? I want you to tell me what you think, not just that I should decide. (I will be using my characters names, and I ask that you respect this.) Joran: "Born a prince, raised a bastard, lived as a commander, died a king" The last living heir of the former kings. Joran was, at the age of 2 forest to go into hiding, when his family was killed in a rebellion. He was hidden under the disguise of a loyal lords bastard son. The lord had him trained as a soldier, he was raised thinking he was a bastard. Before he was told the true story, he ran away, and joined the armey. By the age of 16 he was a famed leader, and people began to call him a second Lionheart, Somewhere along the way, for soldier to commander; Joran discovered his family history on his own. Having no interest in claming the kingship Joran leads the his soldiers in a series of battles for the King against a rebellion. He is captured by the rebel leaders in battle, they brutal torture him. He is left with no real sense of his identity. After 5 months Joran is rescued by the King, although it is a false rescue, as the identity of his family has been discovered. After the King is killed in battle, the kings daughter, and only child Jessemen. He becomes her right hand man, and friend. He is killed in battle, leading her armey to victory and the crown. Leone: "A cripple?! My Prince, the man you see there was at one time, the crowning knight of this kingdom. For a better leader you will never met; it is not for nothing that he won the name 'lionheart'." Maybe the most talked about character in the story... We first met Leone through the eyes of his younger brother Richard. Leone's was at one time the greatest knight in the country. Becoming a knight at the age of 16, Leone roses swiftly through the ranks of his fellow knights. He made a name for himself during the rebellion that killed Joran's family, and put the King on the throne. In the tournament the King organised to celebrate his first year on the throne, Leone jousting against a knight well known for not being fair. It is not know whether the other knight was attempting to kill Leone, or what. But it ended with Leone falling from his horse, after a strike to the chest. Leone's right foot caught in the strap, unable to free himself Leone endured a bucking bronco ride... for the ground. The injuries Leone suferd ended his career as an active knight, they also led to many suicide attempts. Depression, chronic pain, and drinking led to the fact that by the time we meet Leone, he is on the edge of a compete mental breakdown. In character Leone changes between the cherfull if sometimes depressed older brother that Richard see. The brave yet falling knight others see. And the dark moody and often suicidal character you come to know. (Leone is 31 at the time the story starts, and was 22 at the time he was injured.) Richard: "The boy has a lot to live up to, being Lionheart's younger brother. Leone's younger brother and a knight to be. Richard struggle is to find his place in the world. He is vary shy, and unsure of himself. He stands in Leone's shadow, other always juoug his actions against his brothers. He struggles more and more, especially as the instabilityof Leone's mental health becomes apparent. A strong relationship with Jessemen, the princess helps him through the story, especially as he comes to relies that Leone is not the perfect knight and brother he has always thought. He supports he claimed to the throne, and helps her win. For Richard, it is a coming of age story, and a story about learning about ones self. ( Richard is 15 in the beginning.) Isabella: "Do not act so unlikely to her sister. She was a girl of 17 when her brother was stricken down, and sense that moment she has ever been at his side. We knights of this realm hold her in high honor for that serves." Isabella is Leone and Richard 's sister. She is rather over protective of Richard. likely do to years spent at Leone's side watching in near helpless as he becomes more and more depressed. Isabella is Leone's self aponted gardening and care taker. She is the laughing stock of the other lady's, because in order to take care of Leone, she has remained unmarried. Isabella does not care, she has always place others before herself. Jessemen: "The princess may be a high born lady. But she can ride and fight as well as a man." The only true born child of the King, Jessemen is a hot tempered princess, she will allow nothing to stop her. He ability to make unlikely friends, like Joran is one of her many abilitys. Her relationship with Richard is a strong support to her, as both she and Richard face hardship. Jessemen is a good leader, at thow s he offin is in doubt. She is able to win back her father's throne after his death, and becomes a powerful queen. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HAS GOTTEN THIS FAR!!!!! I know this was long, and I am sorry. The last thing I want to say, is just a note that Leone, Isabella and Richard have an older brother and sister. Neither Leone or Isabella get on vary well with their family.
I'll start by saying that literally every character archetype that could have existed already does, so don't worry if your characters are similar to some that already exist. As long as they fit into the story you're trying to tell organically, you'll be just fine! One thing I noted is that every character on this list is fantastic in one way or another. They're the best of the best of the best of the best. This is an oft used literary tool in high fantasy, as most authors are trying to tell a grand tale, so they need grand characters. My only advice would be to tone down their stupendousness. Make them more down-to-earth. The only character who's overly interesting is Leone, and that's only because of his blaring flaws that contrast so sharply with who he used to be. Now then, I'm not saying the other characters aren't interesting, and you could do a lot with them in your story, but I fear you're falling into the classic Invincible Hero trope. Just be wary of making your characters too "perfect," as it's a turn-off for readers.
Thank you, Joran is in much the place I want him in. He is the one of the heroes, his flaws are an over trusting others, and being to proud for his own good. As well as being overly fair. Isabella is who she is.Richard is also a very bad swordsman, I forget to add that in. Jessemen is the workings, and she is the one that needs the most work. Leone is Leone, I can't truly tell you much about him. Other than, falling off a horse is NOT fun. (A rider of over 6 years, I know.)
Any character can work if properly executed and in the right story. So if the execution is good and the story is the right these characters should work like clockwork. Or fail miserably if the execution is bad and the story is wrong for them. But you seem to have thoughts about fitting them into the story so "only" the execution is left. You really shouldn't worry about being original, because we're all a couple of thousand years too late for that now. To make a story about it, the girl who wrote the Baal Cycle could perhaps think about being original. And in the case of Baal some guy probably told her that Baal is a total ripp-off of Teshub from Anatolia, the relation between Baal and Anath is outright plagitarism from the Egyptian Osiris and Isis relation and so on. But the author didn't give crap about that and went to write and get her story published. It became a bestseller for the next thousand years or so. So my answer is essentially to take a story you believe in and feel invested in finishing and execute it well. Even the best theoretical framework falls appart under a bad execution and a good execution brings quality to the most boorish story.
Every single character is pre-adult, and more accomplished, better, etc., than the vast majority of--perhaps than ALL--grown adults. This is a large issue. Special special people make boring characters. People with some more "ordinary" in them make much better characters. And I feel that there should be at least a few adults in this story. > Joran: "Born a prince, raised a bastard, lived as a commander, died a > king" The last living heir of the former kings. Joran was, at the age > of 2 forest to go into hiding, when his family was killed in a > rebellion. He was hidden under the disguise of a loyal lords bastard > son. The lord had him trained as a soldier, he was raised thinking he > was a bastard. Before he was told the true story, he ran away, and > joined the armey. Up to here, I'm OK. The peasant who's really a king is done a lot, but there are a whole lot of ways to do it. I'm OK with that. > By the age of 16 he was a famed leader, and people > began to call him a second Lionheart, I'm not OK with this. 16 is too young and "famed" is too famed. I'm OK with ONE thing that makes a person really special, because the theory is that special people exist, so you write about that person. But when you have three--he's a secret king, he's insanely accomplished, and he's a prodigy--then they're just too darn special. He's also completely without ambition--he doesn't want his title back. I'm worried that he's also terribly handsome and great with women. Too much. > Leone's was at one time the greatest knight in the country. The "greatest X in Y" is almost always a mistake. If it's tiny--"the greatest horseshoe player in four counties"--sure. But the bigger it gets, the more dangerous it gets. > Becoming a knight at the age of 16 Another child knight worries me. Yes, yes at 16 a person was probably regarded as a young adult, but a knight? And superior to lots of other knights at a very young age? Why can't he just be a knight? Fairly good. Fairly promising, though of course young and far from the height of his abilities. Tragic end to his career. That would be much more interesting than "greatest". > Eichard is 15 in the beginning. If every major player is a youngish teenager, I feel that this plot is just too big. > Isabella does not care, she has always place others before herself. Too perfect. And with the "laughing stock", too martyred. And another teenager. > Jessemen: "The princess may be a high born lady. But she can ride and > fight as well as a man." Really? > one of her many abilitys. Another unrealistically accomplished teenager. Edited to add: I'm not saying that the whole thing is awful. I'm saying that it's interesting, and you're scrubbing away that interest by trying to make it too grand and shiny. You're scrubbing away all the texture. Don't just tack flaws on these magnificent superhuman creations. Instead, make them NOT superhuman. Make them people.
First, and I feel like U have to point this out, Leone and Isabella are not children. Leone is 31, and Isabella is 26. As far as I know, both of them are adults. In the case of Joran, it is hard to ignore an indigo eye boy in general. One that is capable of leading an army is going to get noticed. Joran came at a time when people where looking for a another young commander like Leone. The people saw that in Joran. He doesn't want his title back, because he thinks that running a country sounds like to much work. He would rather run around with a sword defending the country. On the romantic side, Joran is gay, he does have a relationship Elthor (more on him later), but his dislike for having to deal with girls is well known. I have to go, I will finish my reply later.
You're right--in story present, you do have adults. My apologies. However, Leone and Joran were excessively accomplished as a teens, which is the core of my issue. I'm not clear on what "indigo eye" means, but I'm worried that it's yet another way that he's special? I think that he needs to be less special. Being a lot older before he has his major accomplishments would be good. Making all the young commanders in their early twenties, or older, would be good, as would making them commanders of relatively small numbers of troops--it sounds like Joran commands the whole army? I hope not, but that's the vibe I'm getting?
I was gonna dispute this at first, because I thought that, since people didn't live nearly as long back then, it would make sense, right? Well, I looked into it, but found a new problem. Before that, however, I'd like to mention real quick. A quick google search told me that the average death age was only 32 yrs old in medieval England, so sixteen is at their half-life. (Also, sorry to say but I think this means that Leone's about to die. It's High Fantasy though, so I guess it's fine.) Now, I think this could be irrelevant, because it mixes the high-class with peasants and they definitely lived very differently. But I think it's something to consider. Now, onto the problem I found. This page may seem childish, but it correlates with a couple of other sources I found. https://www.ducksters.com/history/middle_ages/becoming_a_medieval_knight.php According to this site, squires became knights at 21, but they had to prove that they earned it first. Turns out that you have to be able to drink to be a knight, eh? Now, you could wave this away by making the rules of your kingdom not have the "21 years old" rule, but, if you're gonna deliberately base your story on a specific setting, I think you should do your best to emulate it properly. Your choice, though. I mean, you have to remember that knighthood didn't just mean that you were a soldier. Knighthood was an honorable title. They wouldn't just give it to a kid that just finished puberty. Being a knight isn't something that you go to boot camp for for a couple of months and you had a title. It was something that you devoted half of your childhood to becoming. So, yeah, I guess the Freak's right, you're knights were too young to be knights, unless you want the rules of your world to be different than what you based it on. That's fine, as well, but it's something that you should keep in mind when writing these types of characters.
Ah, but that average includes the people who died very, very young--and in a medieval world, there are a lot of them. Let's say that of ten people: - Four don't survive being born. (4, age 0) - Two die before age 1, due to sanitation issues. (2, age 1) - Two die due to starvation, at age four. (2, age 4) - One makes it through all that, but dies giving birth to her own child. (1, age 17) - One makes it through all THAT, and dies at age sixty-three. (1, age 63) We have ten people. The total number of years of life for all of them is 0 + 2 + 8 + 17 + 63. The average age is 6.3. The median age is...1? But the ones that survive early childhood live much longer than that. The one that survives one of the major hazards for women in early adulthood lives MUCH longer than that. But the average remains 6.3, the median 1. So that average/median don't actually tell you much about an individual. Leone made it to thirty. Quoting a random Googling: "...by the time the 13th-Century boy had reached 20 he could hope to live to 45, and if he made it to 30 he had a good chance of making it into his fifties."
Huh, didn't know that surviving the early stuff meant you have a better chance at living longer. Cool stuff. I always thought that most people croaked in their mid-life back then was due to diseases and war and that there was a definite cut-off point for everyone.
Sorry, this is what I met to put above. The former king making Leone a knight was strongly opposed by, well everyone. By normal law no one can be made a knight until the age of 20. But the King can basically do what ever he wants, he is a 'god on earth '. The king was 'rewarding ' the family, when he agreed to knight Leone. All he did was make a lot of people mad at him, and place Leone in a herd position. Leone had no wish to be knighted before he was of age. But the King and his father had other plans. Leone had to be the best of the best, just to prove that a boy of 16 could. It was all about making his father and king proud. Leone never had a chance to say "No", he had no choice in the matter. Refusing could have been seen as treason. So that is how, in short you get a 16 year old knight. On age (in my world), the average for a person in the nobility is 70. Common born people are expected to have shorter lives.
For the story on Leone's knighthood, see one of my new answers. Joran is technically a captain, but was left in command when the general was killed. The king was dealing with a big war, and as long as the person could do the job he didn't care about who they were. The fact that he had a 16 year old in command of the Western Army got lost. So in truth Joran is in command until the King aponts a new general. Joran's eye color is a mark of his family. The family was known for having blue purple or indigo eyes.
This isn't my point. My point is that it's unrealistic for a 16 year old to "rise quickly" through ranks made up of grown men. And it's unrealistic for a 16 year old to be second in command after a general.
Both of them. Joran was a knight at 16 and was, I believe, the commander of the army at 16? And Leone was a knight at 16 and "rose swiftly" starting at 16. Unless I'm misunderstanding. Is there a plot reason why they need to be 16 for these events? The story would be, IMO, more interesting if they started in adulthood, because the reader wouldn't be as distracted by the age issue.
For the most part, I'm on board with @ChickenFreak . If the story is full of teenagers who are consistently better than their adult counterparts, it rings a little too unbelievable; not because young adults can't be good at things, but because in professions (like being a warrior) where time-spent-training and experience on the battlefield directly correlate with how GOOD you are, people who have been doing it even a single year longer will have the advantage. What's more, simple things like [your immune system peaks at age 21], or [you're muscles are bigger at 21 than 16] contribute to how competent an individual is going to be, and by association how good you're going to be compared to your peers. What I mean is, a 21 year old biologically has a better chance of surviving, therefore a better chance at gaining experience, therefore a more likely chance of being competent in a medieval fantasy setting than a 16 year old--least of which because they have 5 more years worth of experience and training under their belt. So if you want your 16 year old to be second in command over the slew of other older, stronger, healthier, more experienced individuals in their unit, you're going to have to find a way to explain WHY they're more competent than their peers. By the age of 16 he was a famed leader, and people began to call him a second Lionheart, Becoming a knight at the age of 16, Leone roses swiftly through the ranks of his fellow knights. Now, all of that said, you CAN make this work if you really want to. But you'll need to be very, very clever about it. You must answer this question: "What have my characters done that have allowed them to become more competent than their peers, thus allowing them to hold positions of authority?" Here's where you get to be creative. These two options spring to mind, however you can go any direction you want as long as you answer that question: Scenario 1: The adults are the first to go into battle, and wave after wave of men die. Your 16 year olds, by virtue of gaining a LITTLE experience each battle but NOT dying, slowly gain experience while the other members of the army are replaced. Because new recruits arrive so often (and are, say, farmers that have never fought before), the 16 year olds are promoted because they're the only ones left of the original army, and compared to these new recruits, are relatively better fighters. Scenario 2: Your army is drafted during peace time, and virtually all of the adults in the army believe there is nothing to worry about. While they slack off, your 16 year olds are training, night and day, until they bleed, to prove themselves worthy. By virtue of gaining more practice and experience than their peers, they are promoted. Really hope this helps! I love fantasy, and to be honest I love young protagonists because they're balls of emotion and that's what I want when I read. I'm rooting for you!!
Leone is the knight, not Joran. Leone "roses swiftly" because he was knighted to make a point. And for that point to be made he had to do things that adult knights refused to do. This is why he dos not get along with his father, and why he was part of a rebellion. You have run me out of arguments on Joran.
So he was promoted for political reasons, rather than on merit? That's more plausible. Yes, I was confused about Joran being a knight, but, still, second in command to a general is a problem. Again, is there a reason why they need to be--or need to have been-- so young?
Yes, Leone was knighted as a reworded to his father. On age, yes and no, Joran is 16 because it works with the time line. Richard is the same way. Jessemen is 15 because it works for the romance with Richard.
I assume that Leon's early and rapid progress up the ranks was also a reward to his father--that he didn't earn it. Even though the ages work with the timeline, it's terribly implausible. You wouldn't have Joran being second in command after a general at, say, age five, just because it works with the timeline. This really doesn't work much better.
They are vary emotional, especially in when it comes to Leone, (for many reasons). What do you think of the girls? I have heard a lot about Joran and Leone. But not much on the girls.
A proposal: What if instead of being commanders and fighting men, these teenagers were/are scouts or spies? That would feel infinitely more plausible.
True, on Joran. Yes with Leone, he also did a number of vary reckless thingsthings, that people noted. Leone has also never been able to live his own life. His father dominated his early years, then a life as a overly young knight, later a rebellion leader. By the time he was given his life back his career as a knight, the only thing he had ever know was gone. Leone was nearly unable to walk, and his life was a mess.
