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Scene Breaks

  1. I use them

    8 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. I don't use them

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. hainguyen

    hainguyen New Member

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    Are Scene/Section Breaks Necessary?

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by hainguyen, Dec 10, 2021.

    I never considered them to be a crucial part of any story, but I found out authors tend to use them a whole lot more than I expected. What is your opinion on them?
     
  2. hmnut

    hmnut Member

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    What do you mean by "Scene/Section Breaks."

    I wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing, so I googled it to see what the term officially means (if I find it on google it must be true right? </s>)

    Scene break - A scene break is a visual marker that lets readers know the setting has changed.

    I take this to mean something as simple as a space between paragraphs when starting a new scene. As a reader I would say, that is pretty important, I would almost argue it's a deal breaker for me. If I'm reading a page and out of no where new characters are there and everyone was outside now they're on a airplane, it's pretty jarring.

    Like anything else there are exceptions, sometimes the writer WANT a jarring effect, I notice in some books as they enter the climax of the story to express a lot of things are happening at once the writer my stop using scene breaks for awhile.

    But when in doubt I would recommend them.
     
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  3. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    Waiting for Godot springs to mind. Clearly they aren't necessary to stories, but probably they should be thought of as necessary to writers. Our toolkit is missing something without them.

    I can't think of any structural or formal element of storytelling that somebody somewhere hasn't had a good go at avoiding. I'd aver though that when it succeeds it's because (e.g.) Cormac McCarthy actively applies his knowledge of punctuation to escape from it, likewise Mike McCormack with sentences, Iain Banks with spelling, and Andre Letoit with words.
    In film it's particularly difficult to avoid scene breaks - but there is Russian Ark filmed as a single 96-minute shot.

    If a story doesn't have scene breaks because the OP hasn't considered them necessary - there's an open question: is it that they aren't necessary, or that they haven't been considered?
    And would the reader consider them to be an improvement? Perhaps the OP could qualify this with a "because" statement. If the story has no scene breaks because it is a continuous/unbroken train-of-thought following a single character - then that's an artistic touch. If it's a novel-length piece, it's difficult to even put that many words down without scene or chapter breaks.

    If there are chapters though, how long are they? Some writers don't like having a hierarchy from chapters down to scenes and use lots of long-ish chapters instead. If the OP has fifty 1500 word chapters, roughly equally-long, that's just a different way of doing it. I think it tends to be less flexible and more formal and harder on the reader - but the author is still in control of the reader's idea of where they are in the story and that's what matters.

    My stories go the opposite way into a forensic or rhetorical logic-of-composition with:-

    Series (1 topic)
    > Book (a theory on the topic)
    > > Section (a perspective on the theory)
    > > > Chapter (an argument within the perspective - expressed as a single change inside a character's self)
    > > > > Scene (several exhibits of evidence for the argument - which are not necessarily from the character's pov but are part of their change in the chapter)

    So for me the scene breaks are crucial to mark where exhibits of evidence begin and end. And I need the reader to keep them distinct in their thoughts because different scenes push in different directions (Protagonistic and Antagonistic) and use markedly different voices. For me, * * * is like in a trial where they say "the defense rests": it doesn't just signal to the reader that this is somewhere they can put their bookmark - it lets them know to reset for another idea.
     
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  4. hainguyen

    hainguyen New Member

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    Good afternoon,
    from what I found, scene break indicates time passing or a change of location that continues in the same scene, while section break "indicates a complete scene break or a character point of view change" (Williamson, 2012).

    Thank you for your input, I appreciate it a lot.
     
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  5. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    Interesting - I wonder if this is intended as a general definition and aims to be extensible to film?

    In a written story, as distinct from film, I would say physical places and time are unreal - so the location is only the character pov, and time is only experienced by the reader through narrative pacing. A scene about a pov character Jim might include the words "Jim rested on the hilltop for a few nights, and when none of the others showed he walked back down to the riverbank." but I wouldn't call it a change of scene - even if the hilltop and the riverbank have been previously established and the reader has distinct mental images of them. On these definitions I think a scene break is a non-concept, and a section break is a scene break.

    I can imagine sentences like that breaking the flow and pace of a scene - but I think that's destructive to the real/mental location, and would usually try instead to show Jim on the hilltop in one scene and on the riverbank in another. Or to write it in a way that moved the 'clunk' to a natural stop at the scene's beginning or end.
     
  6. Idiosyncratic

    Idiosyncratic Active Member

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    Currently Reading::
    Six of Crows
    By that definition, I use section breaks all the time; I frequently include more than one scene per chapter (a tool to control pacing and tension) and I need something to indicate that a new scene is starting; therefore, section break. It’s clean, easy to use, and not jarring to the reader, so it’s almost always the best option for my needs. It’s like a period at the end of a sentence; it lets you know you’ve just come to the end of idea/concept and primes you for something new to start.

    I don’t use scene breaks nearly as often, mostly because I forget they exist. I rarely write scenes that have an internal change in setting/time so significant that I can’t smooth it over with a few sentences of transition, but it’s still a perfectly useful tool which I could stand to use more often.
     
  7. hainguyen

    hainguyen New Member

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    I forgot to mention that according to Williamson (2012), scene breaks are done by leaving out a single space between paragraphs (although, I read somewhere else people use # for it), while section breaks apparently use * * * to divide paragraphs.
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It's been a long time since I saw it, but I'll bet there are pauses of a sort—stretches where there's less activity. The human brain seems to have evolved to be a storytelling machine, and narrative is the natural way we structure our ideas, thoughts and memories. The mind does require pauses to rest, to allow things to settle briefly, before it launches on. This is why those fast-talking, non-stop videos with the annoying announcer-guy voice, where all the natural pauses in speech are edited out to make it faster and more frenetic, are so annoying.

    I remember in Walter Murch's book Blink, about editing film, he maintains that there are natural pause-points in a story, and his hypothesis is that we tend to blink at those points. I think maybe he does, because he lives eats and breathes movie editing, and possibly the rest of us do as well, I don't know. But I do agree that story works best when there are pauses in the right places.

    Why? I've seen it on YouTube, but I don't remember it clearly. Was it all done as one long scene? Even if it was, I'll bet there are pauses in the flow, like I said about Russian Ark above.
     
  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It just hit me—this is the same as the infamous wall of text problem. Solid blocks of dense text with no paragraph breaks repel the eye quite literally. People will often demand that the OP add some breaks before they'll even try to read it, and for good reason.

    Here, here's an example—try to read this:

    This paragraph was a waste of time and space. If you had not read this and I had not typed this you and I could’ve done something more productive than reading this mindlessly and carelessly as if you did not have anything else to do in life. Life is so precious because it is short and you are being so careless that you do not realize it until now since this void paragraph mentions that you are doing something so mindless, so stupid, so careless that you realize that you are not using your time wisely. You could’ve been playing with your dog, or eating your cat, but no. You want to read this barren paragraph and expect something marvelous and terrific at the end. But since you still do not realize that you are wasting precious time, you still continue to read the null paragraph. If you had not noticed, you have wasted an estimated time of 20 seconds. Imagine what you could’ve done with those 20 seconds besides reading this non-productive paragraph. Imagine the things you could’ve accomplished. Imagine the possibilities. But time is irreversible and you still do not realize this. Somehow you have managed still to waste around now 35 seconds reading this stupid, excessive, and long paragraph with your irreversible time. If you haven’t realized that, then you have not yet read the whole paragraph. Even if you did, you still refuse to stop reading this essay. After around 45 seconds, you are still reading this mindlessly and carelessly with your precious and non-reversible time. If you remembered from the first sentence of this disgustingly long paragraph, you would remember that this paragraph was a waste of time and space, imagine if I had not typed this paragraph and you had not read it. Imagine all the things you could’ve done, the things that made you, you. But no, you are still reading this paragraph and it has been around 60 seconds, which is a whole full minute. A minute! Yet you still have the urge and motivation to read this pointless and long essay. Now you have nearly reached the end, you ponder, why am I reading this? Why is the writer making a paragraph so long that I have the urge and motivation to finish this pointless paragraph to prove him that reading is what makes me, me. Then you realize, you have wasted now around a minute and 10 seconds. If you had not make the idiotic decision of continuing to read this paragraph, use that mind of yours to think what you could’ve done throughout your whole irreversible time. You could’ve finished your homework, play with your cat, eat your seal, or you could’ve discovered who made the fire hydrant, if you did not get the reference, you could’ve went and learned something and post it on reddit in the subreddit “Today I learned”, but you still have the urge to read this insanely long paragraph, pondering how I typed this without rest. Then you read this text and see that text over there. Why am I still reading this? How does this paragraph know what I’m thinking? What did I eat last April the 17th? Then you come to the conclusion that you know that this useless and insanely long paragraph would tell you. And you are right, but I did not write this and you have wasted now around 2 minutes. A full 2 minutes. Now, use that intelligence that you have, assuming that your IQ is above 60 and you are literate. Now that you have made it this far, you wonder if you learned anything, but no, you did not get the reference about the fire hydrant and refused to look it up, then you make the decision of reading this long essay with your irreversible time. Since you have made it this far on your long journey, you try have the urge to stop reading. But I bet you cannot finish this paragraph for which you are lazy and want to continue on with your life, but you keep on reading this long, wasteful, barren, and non-productive essay that will not benefit you in any way than making you lose your irreversible and precious time, but that is not even a benefit. Soon you realize that it has been now 3 minutes. A full 3 minutes, now you use your intelligence with an IQ above 70 and ponder about the things you could’ve done, the assignments you could’ve done, the dogs and cats you could’ve eaten. But you continue reading this now nearly 2 paged paragraph. Then you wonder how this is even a paragraph. How am did I make it this far? Do I get a certificate? Why am I reading this pointless and barren paragraph? How does this essay know what I’m thinking about? Then finally, you feel relaxed and accomplished because the essay said finally to make you hyped up that you accomplished reading a nearly 2 paged essay then the paragraph creates a plot twist; You’re no where near the ending. Your insides wince a little while you’re reading this endless paragraph. Wondering if this will ever end. Then you start getting nervous that it’s almost time for bed, then you wonder what you ate for breakfast on June the 9th. How does this paragraph know what you’re thinking about you think? Because when you’re reading a paragraph inside your head, the words are projected into your brain with the IQ above 90 and then the thought process go through your internal organs and through yours eyes and you wonder if this is actually true but it’s really not because all it is non-sense. Then you look at your watch, if you had one, and realize that it’s been a near 4 minutes. 4 minutes, if you expect this paragraph to say the old and customary saying after you’ve discovered how long it’s been, then you’re wrong. This time, the paragraph is going to criticize you why you’re still reading this essay with your irreversible and precious time. Why are you still reading this you ask? Because you are so headstrong and careless, yet you have the urge and motivation to continue reading this essay that it feels like an eternity. If you have made it this far, then it is mind boggling on what you could’ve done with your near 5 minutes. Imagine the things you could’ve eaten ; sushi, sharks, dogs, snakes, cats, fish, humans, dogs, dogs, and many more wonders of this world. Then when you are reading this, you realize that there is no long a wall of text, you realize that you think you’ve made it to the ending and I congratulate you on your epic journey across the wall of text. Yet you have not yet realized, that you wasted a full 5 minutes on this paragraph that feels endless yet it has been ceased.
    The same problem exists at a larger scale as well, the scale of scene or chapter breaks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2021
    hainguyen likes this.

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