Balancing Strength, Independence with Empathy, Likeability

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Foxe, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. Lae

    Lae Contributor Contributor

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    I don't usually equate a free spirited person, someone who is desirable and fleeting as a "mean bitch" and I cant imagine why anyone would assume she is even if she disappears from their lives for whatever emotional reason.

    The whole she wouldn't open up stuff doesn't read a free spirit to me, that's more a close book, insular loner type in my opinion.

    Maybe our definitions of a free spirit are different.

    I understand you want this character and those around her to grow but in my opinion this concoction doesn't really work. I feels a bit forced. Like trying to crowbar this free-spiritedness into what essentially reads to me, as an emo.
     
  2. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    She's certainly not emo. The things I've described about her are the underlying fundamentals of her personality. On the surface, what people see, and certainly what the reader will see early on is that she is a free bird; she loves life, she seeks experiences and admires artistic beauty of life. Her outlook towards everything is that it should be seized and enjoyed for all it has to offer. That's what people love about her and what draw them to her. But that lifestyle is exhausting for both parties, and the story is about the realization of what keeps her (and the other characters as well to different degrees) unsettled and always moving.

    Edit to add:

    I want her love of life to be contagious and admirable, but not a caricature. That's why I am here asking for a few ways of adding another dimension of likability/empathy/sweetness/caring that will make her real and show that she is in fact a real person [edit 2] while not compromising her strength and independence.
     
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  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't see people saying that. Maybe your definition of "free spirit" isn't the usual one? What is your definition?

    I could possibly see:

    "I tried to get her to open up to me, but she's just too closed off."
    "I tried to be her friend, but she's just too fickle."
    "Her? She knows everybody, but she's just too shallow to have real friendships."
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Hm. Holly Golightly?
     
  5. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    Guys protect their ego when they're talking about a chick who left them.

    You say "she's such a flake".

    or maybe "a waste of time"

    Or "she's only deep when she's sucking my ----"

    You don't say

    "She's too much of a free spirit"

    That would make the dude sound gay.
     
  6. Lae

    Lae Contributor Contributor

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    End of life as we know it, all that gay sounding stuff.

    o_O
     
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  7. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Maybe the kind of guys you hang around. The characters in this story are pretty well confident in their sexuality that they don't have to worry about 'sounding gay'.

    Different strokes.
     
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  8. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    No. You seem to think I'm saying don't make him sound gay. When I'm actually saying, as a reader, I would conclude he was gay. Either he's gay or she's a mary sue.

    I said he sounds gay because the only reason he'd talk like that is if he didn't like her romantically, and was happy for her to wander off or shut down his attempts at deeper intimacy. Is he her platonic friend? You use terms like " her fully committing", implying he isn't.

    In thirty years I've never heard a single guy talk like that.

    We don't get "hurt" and then call her "Such a free spirit". That would make the female character extremely unlikable because she's being unrealistically praised for causing hurt, and that's a trait of the Mary Sue.

    Maybe MAYBE if the guy was suffering from a severe and terminal case of Nice Guy Syndrome, he might say something that absurd, otherwise

    No.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't see this about guys, girls, whatever. I don't see anyone saying what translates to:

    "She hurt me! It's because she's (flattering description)!"

    Being hurt by someone just doesn't inspire one to say flattering, complimentary things about that person.
     
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  10. cydney

    cydney Banned

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    This is interesting! I understand completely what Foxe is saying but I understand what Phil is saying. Maybe it's a really unusual relationship - two people understanding all aspects of each other without being suffocating. I do see where the male character may need to come out of his comfort zone and do something unusual to save the relationship.
     
  11. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Well, I mean protagonist wouldn't say it that way outright ("she was just a free-spirit, oh well!). I'm just colloquially boiling it down to the crux of the circumstances.

    The protagonist would be resigning to the the belief that a woman like that can never be tamed. I know that sounds lame at first, and that becomes the realization.

    She cannot be tamed because she does not want to be tamed, and she does not want to be tamed because being close with someone means being vulnerable in a way that digs up some of her painful past and makes her give up some control over her emotions. The men that pursue her don't see that insecurity, they see the free-spiritedness.

    Edit: Being a free-spirit can be both a virtue and a vice. A free spirit is free, that's great. But a free-spirit also comes and goes as he/she pleases. The free-spirit is satisfied, and can potentially leave -- and it doesn't have to be malicious at all -- someone who has gotten attached with nothing but a void. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a flattering thing.
     
  12. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Sometimes sounding gay can get you the girl. :ohno:

    Anyway, I agree with @ChickenFreak and @Phil Mitchell : the guys who've been dumped wouldn't think of her in kind or flattering terms unless they were desperate to get dumped... and even then they'd probably go like "that chick was crazy."

    And then later they can be like "well, dating a crazy girl is a part of every man's life journey, so... no regrets!"

    But I'd say there are more positive connotations to "free spiritedness" than negative, although naturally the OP decides what the label entails in her story. I find this character archetype interesting because it's somehow tragic, I guess.
     
  13. cydney

    cydney Banned

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    lol Agree!
     
  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I just came to this thread. I was puzzled by how you phrased your OP. You said: a female character whom I want to embody strength and independence, but who makes poor decisions due to an underlying insecurity....

    That will be difficult. A person who embodies strength and independence doesn't usually have underlying insecurities. They may pretend to be strong and independent—to the extent of overcompensation sometimes—but having insecurities weakens their ability to actually BE independent. You're not independent if you're constantly looking over your shoulder, wondering what others think of you, or wondering when and how you're going to screw up next, or if you're running away from your past. Independence means you KNOW that whatever happens, you'll deal with it. So you go for whatever you want, confident that you can sort problems and mistakes if, or when, they arise. Independence and strength come from confidence, not insecurity.

    If you truly meant that YOU (the writer) want your character to be strong and independent but to keep their underlying insecurities for story purposes, then I think you've set yourself a tall task indeed.

    If you want the character to BECOME strong and independent instead—rather than embody strength and independence—that's a worthy story goal. It will involve overcoming the insecurities in some way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  15. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Well what if the strength and independence the character thought she had was instead a tolerance for pain and resilience towards the difficulties of life? I believe people might mistake one for the other.

    So the character journey will play out like this:
    - She is seen as a free spirit, impossible to tame, but a lover of life and an attractive person (personality and looks). Characters and the reader are to be shown that these are the result of strength and independence, which even she might believe.
    - As story progresses, readers and (some) characters realize that it's not so much strength and independence, but more safeguard mechanisms to shelter her insecurities
    - We see hints of strength, or real desire to be strong and independent throughout her arc
    - Test of strength, moment of decision
    - Concludes with her realization that she can be strong and independent in ways she previously tried to hide.

    So the journey of this character is to find her strength and independence.
     
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  16. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I think you need to stop discussing it and start writing it. That's the only way you'll know.
     
  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, that makes sense. Other characters may see this person as strong and independent, but in reality it's a front. Making these qualities become real for her, instead of a front for her insecurities, is a great story arc for your character.
     
  18. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Thanks everyone. This became more interesting and helpful than I anticipated.
    I think this thread has served its purpose!

    I'm already 8k+ into the story but I just needed to get this character right because she drives the story forward. Knowing her a little better means I can go forward with greater confidence in this story.
     
  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I went out with a girl somewhat like is described here when i was younger , she was superficially a very interesting person and fun to be arround (she was also very physically attractive and good in bed which probably explains why i put up with her shit for so long), but in a realtionship her inability to commit either to one partner or to one anything else (job, interest, group of friends etc) was trying in the extreme.

    Eventually I binned her after she had yet another one night stand with a rugby player (and doubtless most of the rest of the 1st and 2nd 15, the referee, the linesmen, most of the oposing team and a passing spaniel called oswald ... as you can see i'm not bitter at all :D) , it never occured to me to call her a 'free spirit' though i did call her many other things, of which 'faithless whore' was the most pleasant

    "free spirit" is the sort of self justifying phrase that she used "oh its not that I don't care about you, its just that i'm such a free spirit ..." its not a description a hurt ex would use unless it was ironic "yeah bro she said she wanted to be a free sprit, so i free'd her shes free to fuck right off"
     
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  20. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way but I found your post so engaging hahah

    What if someone self proclaims oneself to be such a free spirit that others can't help but buy into it at first, until the nastiness is revealed?
     
  21. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I suspect that would depend on the context - in a flower child, hippy dippy setting every second person is going to be describing themselves like that (plus they'd be practicing 'free love' so the inability to commit wouldnt show up as much anyway.
     
  22. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    It seems maybe this went in a different direction, so I might be late or off topic with my comment, so if so I apologize

    I had a main character I had fully intended to be a bitch. She was independent, fierce, confident, guarded, distant, and cold & sharp like shards of ice. And (stereotypically) she had been hurt so she built up these walls intentionally. And the story has characters break these walls down brick by brick, with much resistance from her followed by resigned indifference and finally active participation.

    The thing is, I always loved this character. I found a lot of her bitchy qualities entertaining & to a degree cathartic, and her slow growing cracks of vulnerability endearing. And somehow I found my readers loved her too, and I believe it's because my love for the character bled through my writing--in small details, the diction I'd choose to depict her, the tone when I described her actions, et cetera.

    I find if you believe certain things about your character & you yourself feel strongly about the character, your audience will pick up on it & it will be self evident in the writing & handling of the character through out.

    I hope this is helpful, and apologize if it is not
     
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  23. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    Does this story actually have anything happen... a pivotal event, some conflict resolution beyond a bunch of pretentious twentysomething year olds navigating modern relationships? Perhaps you could add to the mix a velociraptor, turn it into Dinosaur Erotica?
     
  24. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Yeah, things happen. You're quite astute!
     
  25. Foxe

    Foxe Active Member

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    Your character sounds very similar to mine. I'd say the main difference is that where yours may come off more as bitchy, mine is elusive. But like with yours, it comes up as a self defence mechanism.
     

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