Well sadly not everyone thinks that way Ed, been to a lot of places and you wouldnt believe how people change their look at you once they know from where you are. We live in a strange world or maybe it was always this way
Ed, I am speaking for myself, but then, also for a demographic I meet everyday. But like lots of things, in this day and age you put a stupid grin on your face and start humming "We Are The World." I'm tired of it. I'd rather take some heat than walk around pretending everything is alright. One contributor, fresh from Gunsite Raven, told the reporter that the biggest joy during the classes was to "simply speak the truth." And I agree. I'm not going to hide out any more. Ed, you can speak as you wish, but I want to honestly speak as I feel, as well. You aren't going to get canonized simply because you are a foreigner, and I'm not evil for pointing it out.
I have to say, I've been looking at this for a while, and I can't pull much of anything coherent out of it, other than a) you are ticked off and b) you seem convinced that it's someone else's fault. I feel sorry for you. As I occasionally mention on this forum, one of my favorite writers was James A. Michener. He had an abiding love for this country (the US) but he also had a burning desire to learn about other places and people, what their histories were and how they got to where they were at the present. He always believed that any other culture, any other people, had something of value to share, and he wanted to make sure he shared in it. In my limited travels, I have had some of the same experience, whether as a ten year old standing on the deck of the Queen Mary or as an adult bargaining with street vendors in Ocho Rios, Jamaica or wandering among the Mayan ruins at Tulum, Mexico. But a word about truth...your personal vitriol is truth for you, but not necessarily for the rest of us. I am well aware of the prejudices of some of my countrymen, and they are shameful. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned tribalism, and it is truly sad that in this day and age, knowing what we know, being able to reach who we can reach (and where), that such attitudes still exist. Then again, when the question is asked of a group of candidates for the presidency if any of them don't "believe" in evolution, and three out of eight raise their hands, you really have to wonder if there is any hope for us at all (yes, of course I know they were pandering, but then that's exactly the point).
What i meant by tribe is some of our behaviors we still have this territorial instinct "this is mine that one is yours" or the "i rather speak to someone from my own tribe than from others" which is more of our animal instinct than behavior we have not evolved as much as we think we are. It might sound silly for some of us that we live in same earth and share the same air but that we need clearly to mark our territory and that is something i think we will always see or at least i dont see it changing in our life time.
Actually, my issue was associating it with only the right wing, when in reality, it's mainly left wing fanatics (see earlier post), and some of the Neo-Nazi's (who are actually socialists) that have picked up certain elements of right wing fanaticism (classical liberalism taking to the extreme). Anyway, Mama, from what I've read of your posts, I'm comfortable saying that I know you're too discerning to paint with a broad brush - sorry if my earlier post made it sound like I was accusing you of that.
Well, Ed, don't be. I live pretty cushy. But I'm not going to slap some plastic grin on my face and sing Kumbaya because some liberal thinks it's how I ought to live. When I signed on this morning I read a response to a post concerning Snicket and paying for food. The member said he thought my response was unsual--because I agreed with him. And I'll tell you what I told him. There is but one Tourist. I'll fight for you when you're right, and I'll call you on something when you're wrong. But I won't lie to you. John Wayne had a quote, and when I first heard it I was dumbstruck at the honesty and clarity of that opinion. And I'm going to live that way. He said: "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." That's the world I want. Many things interest me. I like good writing. Friendship. Honesty. People who work for a living. I don't like whiners, or easy riders (in the old world Southern definition) or apologists. You want to talk about literature, food, theater or art and I'll correspond with you all day. I am a good friend, and I'll defend you to my grave. But I am also a bad enemy. If you're a thief, I'll turn you in. If you lie, I'll expose you. If you try to live off the hard work of others I'll make sure you pay them back. And I don't sing Kumbaya. You touch me, scare my wife or attack my country, and I'll stick a blade into your throat--for fun. I am the same person every day. You ask for an opinion, and I will give you one. To answer your response, I pity the people who force themselves to mouth the whims of the populus just to be included, for fear of being 'flamed' as it's now known. I live free. I have dear friends who'll die for me. I laugh most of the day. And when I ride I do not carry with me the fears of the cowards I share this planet with. I hope that someday everyone can say this--without lying.
same goes for me... however, i do have to say that americans in general [other than the newly-arrived] are very insular, not well-traveled, so do seem to like only 'their own'... which sadly makes them almost the worst tourists when they do travel abroad [second only to the arrogant germans, for rudeness to locals], seeming to want every place they go/stay to be americanized, instead of enjoying the wonderful diversity the world has to offer... scrubb... i appreciate the apology... thanks! love and hugs, maia
mammamaia, this should make you smile--and scratch your head at the same time. This happened again to me, just a few minutes ago. We have a debate, I draw some minor flak. Within minutes I get a nice PM or e-mail, and sometimes a "friend request." I just got another one. You can love literature and still be a redneck biker who doesn't suffer fools. LOL.
Welllll... I really don't care for the generalized 'ugly American' thing. As for being insular, around here we have several communities of immigrants, and they take the cake for being insular. The expectation seems to be that we are supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate their customs, versus their even attempting to meld into ours. Obviously, there are individual exceptions. So perhaps it would be better to say that it's not just Americans, that people are people, with faults and good points, regardless of nationality or where they happen to be.
You sound like someone who preaches tolerance and acceptance while being the biggest hater of people who are different yourself. Its not really any more cool to say "americans are this way" as to say that "in general all black people are like this" or any other group like the Mexicans (its just as racist really). America and Europe isn't solo to be blamed for intolerance and I think its wrong to just point a finger at them and claiming they do but all others are so nice. You can find intolerance everywhere, go to middle east for instance (A women like yourself should try debating this or women rights there, you can laugh yourself lucky if they don't stone you for speaking or try dressing a bit wrong when you walk around and see how tolerant they are toward you, you dare to do that?) or somewhere like china/northkorea (try sharing posters where you debate and criticize their government and see what happens) even Africa with Mugabe and such shows that intolerance is everywhere (and I would argue that its worse on many places than it is in America or Europe). (I can be wrong about this, but this is what I think) West is among the few places of this planet where most behaviors goes, most cultures can currently be practiced (except sex with kids and such) and most thoughts can be shared (you can dislike the government openly and even run a blog stating that the gov are doing everything wrong, its ok, you can watch art/porn, listen to music (no you can't do that safely everywhere), you can read about communism or fascism or a fantasy/love story if you like that, a girl can go to school without having a bunch of grown men waiting to blow her up, you can do a lot of things that isn't OK everywhere). Its not perfect anywhere but those countries you mentioned are probably not the worst to be in if you value tolerance of different ideas and behavior. I think you should do more traveling yourself if you want to see real intolerance (I'm not talking about someone just being rude, there are many governments out there ready to throw people in jail and kill them for saying something they dislike even the locals can kill you for saying the wrong thing, but gosh so intolerant Americans are.... When we turn a blind eye to the rest of the world that is). Edit: I don't mean to offend anybody from any culture or country with this post (if I happen to do that then its because I'm not so good at expressing myself and I'm sorry). I'm very tolerant and I have no beef with china or any other country or its people. But I personally dislike how mammamaia try to point the finger at just one/two "groups of people" (I think its time to acknowledge that all groups have racists and intolerant people, and that the "problem" with hate is global instead of claiming that "only them intolerant Americans do it" when that is simply not true).
@slamdunk: the thing is, you criticise another when they offer a generalisation about your nation, which you fiercely reject but then you go on to generalise negative qualities about nations and places you obviously don't know very well. It's one thing to be offended at criticism aimed at your nation (we all feel that way) and another to be a hypocrite. Every single country, nation or a political system has its negatives. The biggest danger arises when one country, nation or a group declares themselves better than some other group. The evidence of this alleged superiority is usually presented with a heavy disregard for own failings and other's achievements. This is exactly the kind of attitude which, in its extreme, lead to slavery, imperialism, military bullying of small nations by large ones, eugenics and a concept of a 'superior nation'.
Why is the claim that Americans are the worst [second only to the arrogant germans, for rudeness to locals] not really in this category then (about racisms and such)? And worthy a lesson in history? I think you have many good valid points here (about my generalizations wasn't so good). My goal wasn't to declare someone as better or worse and I think that maybe I did that looking back and my post was a bit hasty put together and again I'm sorry if I offended someone (I assume I did and I agree my generalizations was really bad). My goal was just to point out that hate for differences and such is everywhere. If I was smarter (Im not so smart or good at debating) then I would have said just that hate is everywhere somehow without even remotely offending people. Also you are correct about me not knowing those places used in the examples "very well" (I doubt mammamaia know enough germans or americans to say that they are the worst in the world however?). mammamaia did not criticize my "nation", I still choose to pick the debate. Overall my post was clumsy. I hope we can still talk in a civilized manner and that people do understand that humans make mistakes (I bet my post contained many mistakes, feel free to correct them and I'm sorry once more).
Of course, and I didn't think you were clumsy in your argument at all. I just debate passionately, it's a force of habit What you said is the way majority of people would reply to any negative generalisation which doesn't describe them, me included. I just made an utter hyperbole to illustrate that this tendency in all of us makes us easily manipulated by any kind of propaganda about people and places, especially if they are far away or in other ways foreign to us. The debate you were trying to pick is, in my opinion, one where nobody ever wins or loses. Because both sides are right
Thank you, you seems like a really nice person. I'm sorry if I in some shape or form defamed mammamaia too (maybe I took her post out of context?). I just want to stress that I am not in any form or shape a racist. I have friends from many different cultures and backgrounds and from different parts of the world and it has never been an issue for me. I do not in any shape or form support "groups that declares themselves better than some other groups". And so on, I can't stress it enough but I AM NO RACIST - period (everyone who are my friends know this, my post here earlier may have come across as something that its not due to the generalizations used, I don't know, but to all the people around the globe: I don't hate anyone or think they are below others for being born in a specific country or having a different belief or looking in a certain way etc).
You really needn't apologise, you didn't come across like any of those things. I hope you don't take what I said the wrong way
I had to apologize since I think what you said made a lot of sense. I wish I had not posted to be honest but I can not take it back so I did the second best thing I could think of and apologized and tried to repair/explain my stupid post (as good as I could). Also, I like to focus on other threads now (as I am mainly here to focus on different ideas and aspects of writing, and not to discuss world issues). I can not add much more than I'm sorry for my post once more (if someone is still offended and want an apologize/clarification I do reply to pm's).
for the record, i have been traveling to various and sundry parts of the world since the mid 1950s and have lived in many countries since 1999, only returning to live in the US 6 months ago [see list of places below]... thus, i spoke/wrote from first-hand observation when i made the comments about tourists... if anyone here has seen and had to deal with american and german tourists in as many places on the planet as i have and can honestly disagree with my conclusion, please do so... but please keep in mind i obviously meant it in a general sense, and not that every single american/german tourist behaves badly... Where in the world I’ve been/lived: CANADA MEXICO CARIBBEAN ISLANDS [several] PANAMA VENEZUELA COLOMBIA ALGERIA EGYPT MOROCCO ISRAEL JORDAN TURKEY AUSTRIA BELGIUM ENGLAND FRANCE GERMANY GIBRALTAR GREECE [mainland and many islands] ITALY JERSEY LIECHTENSTEIN MONACO NETHERLANDS PORTUGAL SPAIN SWITZERLAND VATICAN CITY [and all countries passed through on Orient Express from Paris to Athens] CYPRUS MAJORCA MALTA SICILY AUSTRALIA* NEW ZEALAND SAIPAN TINIAN JAPAN* KOREA* THAILAND [*airports only]
I think instead of using "americans in general" it would more accurate to say "Americans I have encountered". Particularly since, no matter how well-traveled, one person cannot have met enough American tourists and been with them throughout their stays (to see if, for example, they were having a particularly bad day or if they were acting like idiots on a constant basis) to make a such broad-reaching generalization.
From my personal experience it's English tourists who are the most troublesome. Germans, especally in Italy, I've seen to be actually amazingly cultured. The only reason Germans only have a reputation for being arrogant and stealing sunbeds in my experience is because English people are hopelessly sensitive, and over polite. That's more of a fault with England than Germany.
I encountered a group of Germans who were walking towards us on a narrow pavement. There was a woman in front of us with a small child in a pushchair - only room for one on the pavement, but it wasn't the Germans who stepped off the pavement - it was the woman, complete with child, who found herself facing on-coming traffic.
I've not had an experience like that I must be honest, but like Shadowwalker says, we'll all have had different experiences.
I come from the Adriatic and I've seen loads of tourists throughout my childhood. These are my impressions: German women sun bake topless until they are lobster-red; Swedes always come in newest Volvos and love camping; Czechs, Slovaks and Poles bring everything with them, food, flour, sugar, everything, and they camp; the English drink way too much; Italians yell "Cara mia!" after every vaguely attractive female under 65; Belgians are always explaining to people that they are not French. American tourists I only know from big cities but there are so many types that you can't easily generalise. But I'll say this much - socks and sandals on a man, not a good thing. Regardless of the nationality
