Can you recommend me a book where the villains win?

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by Link the Writer, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    I don't think I'd include this in the "villains won" category, since the ending of the novel is not that the axis powers won the war. FDR losing to Lindbergh is the beginning of the story, not the end.
     
  2. Thomas Kitchen

    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    448
    Location:
    I'm Welsh - and proud!
    I know, but it sort of counts, right? Okay, it doesn't...:oops:
     
  3. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Not to worry.
     
  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    A lot of the stories in Ovid's Metamorphosis involve the victim being punished in truly awful ways and the victomizer (mostly Jove being lurid) getting off scottfree.
     
  5. Amanda_Geisler

    Amanda_Geisler Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    105
    Location:
    Australia
    I don't know about a book but the movie se7en has that kind of ending. [SPOILER ALERT] Sure the bad guy dies, but he finishes his work and the good guy gets arrested.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  6. Thomas Kitchen

    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    448
    Location:
    I'm Welsh - and proud!
    Um...spoiler? :p
     
  7. Amanda_Geisler

    Amanda_Geisler Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    105
    Location:
    Australia
    yeah its an old movie, maybe I shouldn't say old since it was made the same year I was born. I couldn't think of a way to explain why it was kind of a villains win movie without giving a spoiler. I just added a spoiler alert in front of it.

    Amanda
     
    Thomas Kitchen likes this.
  8. Wowzie

    Wowzie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Nineteen Eighty-Four. The day is not saved. The hero fails. The book ends with a dim outcome.
     
    daemon likes this.
  9. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    978
    This is one of the best examples of the trope the OP was looking for.

    Animal Farm, too.

    Lord of the Flies is probably the purest example of a downer ending that I can think of, since it is an allegory of the fall, but without any redemption. That book fucked me up.
     
  10. BookLover

    BookLover Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    148
    Tell-All by Chuck Palahniuk.

    Besides the ones already mentioned, I'm having trouble thinking of any more. Bizarre.
     
  11. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    That's not technically true. There is a happy ending to the book, you can leave it knowing The Party will fail. It is very subtle, but it is there.
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  12. Wowzie

    Wowzie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Darn.
     
  13. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    You are essentially right, you have to really look at the entire novel to see the one hint I am referring to. :)
     
  14. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    The Dark Angel by Mika Waltari, " about a hopeless love affair and the Fall of Constantinople." -from Wiki

    Good luck finding it, though.
     
  15. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    Genius
     
  16. deviouspooka

    deviouspooka Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2014
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    6
    Pretty much anything by H. P. Lovecraft. Even if hero kinda wins, the hero typically ends up in a straight jacket. Plus, there is the overall feeling that everyone is still gonna get devoured in the end. ;) There's also a slew of short stories by Harlan Ellison that fall into this category, such as "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" and "I have No Mouth, and I Must Scream."
     
  17. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    978
    That is a title if ever I have read one.
     
  18. Sheriff Woody

    Sheriff Woody Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I saw some film recommendations, so I'll add a few downers to the list...

    Sweet Smell of Success
    Before The Devil Knows You're Dead
    Ace in the Hole
    Chinatown
    Body Heat
    A History of Violence
    The Counselor

    Also be sure to check out A Simple Plan. The book is incredible, and Sam Raimi's film adaptation is just as good. I also enjoyed Scott Smith's other book, The Ruins. Huge downer ending there. There was a film adaptation of that, too, but it was crap.
     
  19. BookLover

    BookLover Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    148
    I really liked both the books A Simple Plan and The Ruins, but does the "villain" really win in A Simple Plan? Who are you considering the villain in that story?

    The Ruins, though, definitely is a villain winning story. Soooo disturbing, and yet sooo gooood.
     
  20. Kekec

    Kekec Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Bosnia
    I can think of a non-fiction novel Into the Wild by Jon Krakauer. Also The Stranger by Albert Camus.

    As for the films: Independence Day, War of the Worlds, The Hunt for Red October, The Patriot (with Mel Gibson), Sleeping with the Enemy, Braveheart, Predator 1 and 2, The Expendables, etc.
     
  21. Sheriff Woody

    Sheriff Woody Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    With noir - classic or neo - the villain is oftentimes the protagonist, willingly agreeing to some evil plot or scheme and (usually) suffering the consequences of such actions. This is not always true, of course. There are enough private eye and random sap protags finding themselves caught in a web of lies/deceit/sex/murder/whathaveyou where there is an explicit villain, but it's the willingness of the main character to go down dark paths that gives noir its name.

    The antagonist of A Simple Plan is also the protagonist. It's just one guy who does a bad thing and karma catches up to him. Same deal with the film ACE IN THE HOLE (which is a full-fledged masterpiece; I suggest everyone see it immediately). Chuck Tatum is both hero and villain. He's in it for his own good. He's the guy struggling against the conflicts of the story, but he's also the guy responsible for them.
     
  22. BookLover

    BookLover Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    148
    I see. But if karma catches up to him, he doesn't really win.
     
  23. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    Blood Meridian
     
  24. davidm

    davidm Poodle of Guernica

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    432
    Likes Received:
    201
    Blood Meridian, yes, and also No Country for Old Men by the same author, though the "villain" does get critically injured in the end, but only after making sure everyone is dead including all the good (and other bad) people. The only good person who survives is the sheriff, but he never encounters Anton Chigurh and anyway, he's hopelessly ineffective.
     
  25. Sheriff Woody

    Sheriff Woody Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I suppose that's one way of looking at it, but neither does the hero win. Far from it.

    Just one of the many reasons why I love noir. There are so many ways to look at it and see characters as people instead of stock good guys or bad guys. When the good guys are as evil as the bad guys, are they really the good guys?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice