Commas, or why I use them to editor's chagrin

You can absolutely have standalone dialogue with nothing following it. Totally a thing. Something that might be used as a beat (eg he laughed) can also be a standalone sentence that's not paired with dialogue to make a beat. A noun and a verb might not make a sentence in your book, but as far as the rest of writing is concerned, you're just incorrect. No one can stop you from doing it, but yes, if you're making grammatical errors, you should expect readers and editors to point it out, and expect to 'fail'.

 

I have works of antiquity and writings from Elizabethan era & older that do things of that nature which he brings up.

However, I trained myself to be able to read that way & follow archaic formulas & diction. Or rather I was trained by being given these sorts of writings from a very early age.

However, I don't think it's so easy to go from our modern conception of a novel & read these old works without missing a beat. Often it takes struggle, and trial & error in making sense of a sentence or so until you think you may have a handle of it.

 

Is this really a hill you wish to die on?

Regarding the examples in your initial post, I agree absolutely with the way you had it, with the comma. And you know what? I downloaded the free Grammerly app that will edit your social media posts (including those on these forums) and it's constantly nagging me to insert commas after clauses it sees as dependent or introductory, even when doing so would (imho) change the meaning of the sentence. So if you're a Grammerly fan, that makes you way more right than your editor.

(Hmm, query: How does this editor come into it? Aren't you doing the editing yourself?)

But as to the second example, "'Howdy,' he smiled at her," is just plain awful. It doesn't read as a stylistic choice, it reads inept and amateurish. And you can easily correct it and keep your meaning by changing it to "'Howdy,' he said, smiling at her."

There. Simple, neat, and you're in no danger of anyone thinking you slept through the lesson on dialogue tags and beats in Miss Wilson's 10th grade English class.

 

Just you wait until I get to the Beta-stage

 

I've just read through the whole thread. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for, from us. Are you asking if things like commas and dialogue tags matter to the reader? What I'm picking up here is yes, they do matter. If something seems wrong or out of place, this will yank a reader out of your story. As @Catrin Lewis so aptly said, "Is this a hill you want to die on?"

Some punctuation rules really can't be broken, even in creative writing, without a great deal of disruption to the flow. (Starting every sentence with a capped letter, ending with a period, exclamation point or question mark.) If the writer intends to create disruption, in order to shake the reader a bit, fair enough, break any/all rules. If not—watch out.

Other 'rules' are more subtle and can be manipulated without the reader even noticing, if the writer is skilled enough. Separating clauses with commas is one of those rules you can mess with a bit, without creating bother for the reader.

Sometimes a sentence, especially if it's a short one, can read better with the commas omitted. Other times, the commas help. That's where only reading out loud, or getting somebody ELSE who hasn't seen the work before to read it out loud, can pinpoint any problem. If the reader pauses where they shouldn't, then you've probably used a comma where you shouldn't. If they rattle along and don't pause, or end up with the wrong emphasis in the wrong places, then inserting a comma or two will probably benefit the piece. It's trial and error, really. I've got places in my novel where I've added, removed, added, removed many times, before finally deciding on whether or not to use the comma.

As to the dialogue tag issue. That's getting to be a matter of preference—unfortunately.

For me, "Howdy," he smiled, just doesn't work.

"But—but—but—" he sputtered, WOULD work. I'm not saying I'd use the tag in this place, as the em-dashing makes the sputtering clear enough, but it would be all right as a tag because sputtering is how the 'buts' are being said. Words like whispered, growled, snarled, muttered, shouted, all denote the sound of the speech itself—and are valid tags. They describe the speech. Especially if the sound of the speech really matters to the story. The difference between a whispered sentence and a shouted one may matter a lot.

Smiled, on the other hand, depicts what the person is doing with his face in addition to speaking. So would, "Howdy," he frowned.

"Howdy," he waved, shows what the person is doing with his hand as he speaks. "Help," he fell. It can get very silly, can't it?

To me, these tags jump out as being out of place, and not effective because they create a silly image in my head. However, use them if you must. If it's a hill you want to die on.

 

That's how I usually see it used, and I find it weird and out of place. In my experience, you can't hiccup a word because the hiccup itself isn't talking. The hiccup interrupts the word or words, and you continue to try to talk around the hiccups. So to me saying "Blah blah," she hiccupped doesn't make sense, whereas "Blah blah," she said between hiccups makes perfect sense. That said, if you put the former example in your book every once in a while, I'd be like, "Oh, that's weird," and move on. Moderation is the key.

 

Yeah, you're right. I'm not going to throw a book in the bin because the author did this kind of tag once or twice. However, it doesn't add to the book, either. If a person is doing two things at once (speaking and hiccupping, speaking and smiling) then it's less jarring to find another way to say it. Ron smiled at me. "Hello," he said, holding out his hand.

 

Im curious to see reactions. The one aspect is comma placement, on which I will insist because people don't read with grammer in mind, instead they hear it, or listen to a narrator. That's when I use breathing pauses, or when ideas need a separation, so rather than using a period and end up with a lot of three word sentences, I go with the comma.

There was some confusion and perhaps I didn't express something well. I had a sample edit done through the publisher. They do the first chapter to show where any issues may occur. POV and the tags were the only issue found, barring two typos. The POV is another hard issue that I will not change. That is a hill I will die on if it must be. If a reader gets confused because of that "rule" so be it, but the action cannot be interrupted or split into another chapter to go into another headspace.

So back to the editing, I have done my own edit as well. Mostly for spelling, plot issues and other aspects. Although those were more for setting up the next book in the series. So I will have no choice but to self edit, at the risk of lower quality due to my lack of experience. I have a list of think'thing type words that will clear a spell check, but I dont know them all. An editor, I am not. Add into that bad vision and its easy to miss things and let the mind fill in, over any potential mistakes. A shocking crime, no doubt.

I am glad (or did I misunderstand) that others have encountered different standards about tags, and dialogues in general. Literature did exist prior to the 1900s. I will look through my library to find examples, but thats a moot point. I personally have a reason for it. It contains the dialogue, the person who said it, and what they were doing at the time of the dialogue in one sentence.

To reiterate:

"Howdy," he smiled vs "Howdy." He smiled. -- The first instills the notion that howdy is being said simultaneously with the smile. (of it that is a stretch, use 'he waved', although one can smile and talk at the same time). The second makes it seem like two distinct non-intersecting actions. "Howdy." Then he smiled. I do use that format many times IF the action is followed by a set amount of time.

"Hmmm." He paused before typing in the command.

The purpose of this thread is two-fold. One is, like I mentioned before, to see opinions of both comma applications. And now, seeing some of the reactions, is to understand why the strong resistance to the tag issue, even when what I explained makes sense (at least to me). It has a logic, regardless of a convention. Just because I drive on the right in the U.S. doesnt mean I will do so in the UK.

Of all the rules, this one is the only one that seems to be the great taboo. I have never put a book down because of punctuation. Not ever. If the story and characters were good, I will finish reading it, and want more. Im not defending bad syntax, and horrible inconsistencies in grammar. But if somebody decides to write things like

//Howdy//He said/His hand was waving/

I will be a bit thrown off until I see the pattern, and if thats how all dialogue is written in that novel I will go on reading and not even notice by the end of it.

Sorry if I didnt reply to everyone individually. I hope I addressed some of the questions. I am just fascinated by this rule and how it is defended so ardently. I'm still unsure if I will to defend my rule or not. I may end up correcting it, but I will wait and see what a few other people will say, among which a few colleagues over in the English department. I will want to see in whose company I may land on said hill, lol.

AB

 

This, combined with your earlier mention of the cost of an edit, worries me. A normal publisher will not charge you for editing or for anything else. Do you mean a printer, in the sense of self-publishing?

 

Self publishing. I sent out my work to a few publishers and agents and I never heard (or havent heard yet). At the time I was counting my days, although I still may have them numbered. I wanted to see this work published before anything else happened. Stress is something I shouldnt be dealing with, per the doctor, so I went with self publishing because it's a lot more straightforward.

 

Grammar rules really should be followed for the most part. I don't see how where you put a comma does anything for the artistic vision. In fact, poor comma use will actually devalue your work to some or many readers and editors. I say learn the rules and follow them on this one. I would never fight with an editor on where to put a comma. Everyone's too busy for that.

 

In other words,


???

Good luck.

 

You're not Picasso for misusing commas.

 

I would think self publishing could be more stressful. Maybe you should wait to hear back from some places.

 

Again, if plot and characters are more important than punctuation, why are you undermining your plot and characters by refusing to use standard punctuation?

 

I'm struggling to find the common ground between you defending your work as art and claiming it should be divorced from business concerns and your conviction that you need to publish this book quickly in order to avoid becoming homeless. If you're determined to treat it as art, disregard the following. If you're looking at it as a business...

A few things...

It shouldn't cost you very much to self-publish. If you're not going to pay for editing, you're looking at cover design and maybe formatting. If you're paying more than a couple hundred dollars for each, someone may be taking advantage of you. (Alarm bells sounded b/c of the high price of editing you mentioned).

Don't count on a lot of sales from self-publishing. There are exceptions, but the general rule is that self-published books, especially the first book by an unknown author, don't sell well at all. Like, even if you only spend a few hundred dollars on the publishing costs, you'll probably still lose money.

Do try to find someone to do some editing for you. You mentioned colleagues in the English department - they may not be great, but they'd be something. Do any of them owe you favours?

 

Apart from the insults, I see the same replies given.

For one, most of the book I picked out of my bookcase do not follow this rule at all. In fact, some even use periods before "he/she said". I intended this to be a discussion, not a which hunt, but if that is the case, I'd rather believe some writer greats that words on a screen.

As far as being homeless, I want my work to go out properly. If I was willing to make a quick buck, I wouldnt be writing at all. I would have sold the book with all rights.

I would like to know where this rule is stated? Is this the rule one can never break? But breaking the rule about ending a sentence in a preposition is totally fine. Must be that Chicago style or MLA are the only way one car write, or even read.

 

Can you provide evidence of this? I've never seen a respectable book that has this mistake as a style decision. Sure, there are errors and missed punctuation in most books but you make it sound like respected authors have used this as a style choice and I'd like to see some proof of that. And please take note of the term respected author.

 

I don't understand what you mean. Like this?

"I'd like a burger." He said.

I struggle to believe that a professionally published book had a construction like that.

 

And that doesn't give you a little hint about the reaction to what you want to do...?

 

So you're willing to follow the conventions of which side of the road to drive on, but you're not willing to follow the conventions of how you should punctuate?

If you drive on the wrong side of the road, you're likely to end up in court - or a cast; if you insist on unconventional punctuation, you're likely to drive readers away, and you'll sell no books/nobody will read your work, and your great characterization and plot will wither in the desert.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. You implied that you need money soon, and that your writing was how you would provide it; so I don't understand the second of the two sentences above, which suggests that you're unwilling (i.e. you don't want) to make a quick buck. Or do you mean that you want to make a buck, but not - under any circumstances - quickly? In which case, you appear to be paying no attention to what you, yourself, said; that you need to make money and soon.

Or, to suggest an edit If all I wanted to do was to make a quick buck, I wouldnt be writing at all. Is that more what you meant?

If I've got to translate a book like this, I'm not likely to keep going with it.

 

Mine too! Unfortunately your base assumptions are wrong, so your theory is flawed.

I mean, I'm kinda surprised so many people here are reacting violently to "Howdy," he smiled - it's not something that'd ever bother me when I was reading. But if you don't want your book to piss off what on this sample looks like about 85% of the population, you're better off sticking to standards.

That aside, who exactly is the publisher you got this sample edit through? At best it sounds like you're using an assisted self-publishing company at the moment, and if money is an issue you really shouldn't be doing that.

 

I wont say who is publishing, just because of the reactions here. I feel I must shelter them from potential future scorn. It is assisted, as in they provide most of the services, cover, copyright, etc etc.

As far as the theory, it is flawed. But that seems to be the M.O. I have seen.

So for I have not been given a reason for this standard. I have looked through a few books that I could physically reach and found Robert Heinlein, and Nietzche. The later uses every combination of period, comma, capitalized or not. But I suppose they werent supposed to publish either. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I rebel.

I intended this to be a debate, with productive back and forth, not "you're stupid for not knowing the rules" type discussion. I will no longer post in this thread. It ceased to be about learning or helping when it became hostile.

AB

 

An acceptance that punctuation and grammar are a thing is not hostile.

 

I think there's a sort of an "uncanny valley" situation with style choices. If you're writing conventional fiction, you need your work to track very closely to the accepted lines of grammar, structure, and punctuation. There's always some wiggle room, of course. Kurt Vonnegut said that using semicolons only showed you'd been to college, but the more mistakes you make, the less likely your readers are to push through your book.

To a point.

Once you get into what I'm going to dub "experimental" territory, you've got pretty much free rein. If you're doing things like Cormac McCarthy, or James Joyce, or Iain M. Banks' Feersum Enjin, the readers you get are going to view your non-standard work as a feature, not a bug. But until you get there, you've got to be careful. I don't hold forum postings or social media messages to the same standard as published work, but an excess of errors even in those media will tend to extinguish my interest in a writer fairly quickly.