Contemplating Infodumps

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by EdFromNY, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. Show

    Show Contributor Contributor

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    Infodump is the next "jump the shark." It's lost all meaning. "It's lazy writing." That advice and a dollar gets you a coffee off of the roach coach. "Write better!" Gee, thanks for the tip. :rolleyes:

    I take a more case by case basis of infodump. No, I don't want a whole page of info on Grandma's living room chair that has no relevance to the plot. But not everything labeled an "infodump" is bad.(Or an infodump for that matter) Sometimes I think people expect the writer to be so darn "clever" with avoiding giving out any information whatsoever that the story will become impossible to understand because the reader is getting zilch in the way of info.

    IMO, I've found infodumps, like ANYTHING else, can be used cleverly and be necessary to the story. Now, those who hate infodumps typically go on extreme "okay, let's just let people tell 100 pages of blah, blah, blah" to refute the idea, as if it's either no infodumps or making your entire story one big infodump. (Although one could make a case that such is the nature of a story)

    Rules of grammar and basic story structure are important rules for writers to remember. But infodumps are not among these rules. It takes discretion and seeing what is best for your story. I always see a lot of talk about how evil the briefest of infodumps are but again, talk is worth less than the declining dollar. You tell me about how evil anything labeled an infodump(even wrongly so) is, but ultimately I find it to be empty ranting.

    Yes, there are valid infodump issues where it becomes a problem. But if we just label everything that tells us something about the story an infodump(and that's the trend I sometimes notice), the real infodumps likely aren't going to be fixed. Don't like something in a story? Call it in an infodump. Don't bother about whether it is or not; just call it that. Just like not liking something in a television show, claim it's jumped the shark. Infodump and Jumping the Shark are roommates in the Hotel of Overused Phrases.
     
  2. cmcpress

    cmcpress New Member

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    Well the writer can only really decide what he feels is relevant, but surely the reader would not want a fast moving heist story to be interrupted by a scene involving the discovery of how to make a nuclear bomb. It's a knowledge of the genre and some common sense which would be the deciding factors here.

    Look at it this way. A book is an array of information. The writer can choose to make this information as self contained as possible so that you don't need to refer to external sources in order to understand what is happening or SHe can leave certain sections for the reader to maybe search for outside the boundaries of the work.

    Most readers would generally not wish to have to consult an encyclopedia whenever they pick up a book to read, therefore it is more desirable to contain the information needed within the book.

    Lets look at the realities:

    Publishers like word counts, so in order to keep the book as snappy as possible - sometimes it is necessary to use an infodump, as in the case of the nuclear scientist for brevity's sake.

    Let's look at the artistic side.

    We don't need to see the Death Star designers having round table meetings trying to discuss whether or not the station needs an Exhaust port and people raising objections as to whether having one would open them up to attacks from rebel X-wing fighters and weighing up the pros and cons of the aforementioned port. We simply need to be told that one exists and that it is a vulnerability.

    In that instance it makes more sense, in driving the plot on, to have an infodump.
     
  3. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    I'm not entirely sure how this is related to what I said. Do you imagine that contemporary writing practices just sprung into existence fully-formed and completely separate to what came before? Writing only evolves by borrowing from the past--contemporary authors borrowing classical structures, styles and stories are not anomolies, they're the norm.
     
  4. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Thank you all for a lively discussion. Some thoughts that occur to me as I peruse the posts since my last one:

    1) Popsicledeath - I find it disconcerting that some people on this forum are so relentlessly opposed to references to the past for guidance on what constitutes quality writing, as if contemporary fiction must be a simpler, less rich and even possibly a "dumbed down" art form from what it was in the past. My four examples in the OP were not chosen with any kind of care, they just popped into my head as I was writing. But looking back on them, they comprise a pretty interesting sample - one from one of the greatest Russian literary figures of all time; one from an outstanding American author of the 19th century; one from a Pulitzer Prize winner of the mid-20th Century; one from an American writer of contemporary fiction.

    My argument is not, as you seem to imply, that if they did it then it must be all right. But if a contemporary writer like Clancy has done it, and with some measure of success, and some of the great writers, writers whom are still read today (and should be by students of literature), then it is not inherently wrong. It comes down to how well it is done, which is what all fiction writing does.

    2) Allegro van kiddo - by definition, fiction is not real life. We may desire to make our fiction as close to real life as we can, or we may want to make it as fantastic as we can, depending on the needs of the story. But any story needs to be completely understandible by the reader or else there is no point. You might argue that the addict needs to do the same with you, but addiction is a self-destructive condition. The storyteller does his/her work voluntarily with a conscious goal; the addict may have numerous issues that impair that. The two are not comparable at all, in my opinion.

    3) Clarification to all - my purpose was not to defend the injection of irrelevant information into a story. It was to point out that the use of the term "infodump" seems to be a matter of painting with an ever-widening brush. The presentation of background information is often necessary for the reader to fully comprehend the story, and it then becomes a matter of what is the best way to do so. To characterize all such presentations as "infodumps" is, to my mind, simplistic and ultimately self-defeating. YMMV.
     
  5. cmcpress

    cmcpress New Member

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    Let's look at an example from my short story (in the review section folks - the death of ferrara de lynne ;) ). It starts with the death of a starlet and the main characters reaction to the death. His reaction is unusual - designed to make the reader question what is going on. At this stage the starlet's name or history is unknown to you, the reader.

    There is a short series of dialogue and then there is an infodump about the starlet and what his relationship is to her, and thus explains his reaction before moving onto another scene.

    Within the context of the story, this infodump serves 3 purposes - one to set up the premise and two, to cover up the transition as the main character is walking from one office to another - it also serves as a pause between two fast paced dialogue scenes. This infodump is pivotal in that it contains a twist too and allows you to reflect on the first scene in a different light.

    Now the reason i chose to tell rather than show is because largely the "life" (read it and you'll know what i mean) of the deceased starlet is relevant to the plot only in passing - it serves as the driving force for what will happen to the characters but she isn't the focus.

    Coming in at the point of her death, i felt to be more dramatic than showing her life. The reader needs to know why she is important to the plot but does not need to observe her in action.



    *Disclaimer: By using my own work i'm opening myself up for criticism - I'm sure others may have felt that they might have been able to write it better or differently, and i'm sure they would, but i think it demonstrates that an infodump can be used selectively to impart vital information quickly within a fast paced storyline. I conceed i'm not a great writer - i'm merely a beginner.
     
  6. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    See, this I think is what the OP was talking about. What you've written isn't an infodump, it's just exposition. It makes sense in terms of the narrative structure, it's written engagingly, it only reveals relevant information. Exposition=/=infodump.
     
  7. Show

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    Does it give info? Then it's an infodump. ;) (Yes I am being facetious.)
     
  8. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    aaron89, you are correct. That is exactly my point.
     
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  9. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

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    Part of the issue with an "infodump" is that the author believes the information is vital/necessary for the reader to know so that the story can be understood, and it must be incorporated into the story in one lump at a particular time.

    A first draft might be filled with info dumps, but once the draft is finished and the author moves on to revision and improving the story, much of the vital information may not turn out to be so vital that it has to be dumped onto the reader--or even remain part of the story. And certainly some of the information can be incorporated into the action/dialogue/context of the story.

    Infodump sometimes does = lazy.
    Infodump sometimes does rise from a writer's inexperience.
    Infodump doesn't always = bad, dooming a novel to failure.

    There is a balance, with the goal to give enough information and trust the reader to figure things out. Telling the reader everything up front = boring because the mind isn't engaged in the story (or less engaged). An infodump is a storytelling tool, often a clumsy one, but incorporated properly and well-written, it can effectively move the story forward. Think direct characterization vs. indirect characterization. Think word count, especially in short fiction.

    Dumping information right at the beginning of a novel or short story in most instances is a bad idea, but each writer has to do what he thinks is right for the story being told.

    Just my two cents on the topic.
     
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  10. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I think it makes a better flow to tell it as the story - rather than say what the story is about. However I could summarize it in a couple of sentences, rather than a couple of paragraphs. Because it is first person and it is present tense to have him listen to the story makes more sense imo If an agent/publisher doesn't like it hardly going to take long to change it.
     
  11. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I disagree.

    If I want my story to be a reality simulation even if it's about Elves I want some ambiguity. I want that for the characters and for the reader because it's an Existential comment that I believe is important. Things aren't neatly tied up in life and I enjoy that in literature too.

    A book to check out is Voltaire's Candide. All kinds of crap happens the characters and the point is, there is no point, and I like that.

    In standard novels I have never seen the author identify the type of plastic chair someone is sitting in at the airport or whatever, and that's because real people don't talk like that nor care. Even the omniscient narrator is an implied person and can sound bizarre or corny. Some SF/Fantasy authors end up sounding like that because they're trying too hard to sound "sciencey" and if ends up being a too much information dump. My guess is that if ten thousand years from now chairs are force fields, people will still be calling them chairs.

    A good novel to see this in is called The Unincorporated Man, where the MC wakes up about 300 years from now. The author spent so much time describing chairs, and walls, and how this and that worked it was impossible for me to finish the novel. I always try to read to the end if I spent money on a book but could not do it.
     
  12. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    You're stating that as fact when it is not.
     
  13. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    re using examples of tolstoy, michener and clancy to justify infodumps is self-defeating, imo, since many [perhaps even most] readers of their dump-rife works [myself included] dash through or skip over those boringly over-long 'lectures' to get back to the story...

    so they're not examples of using infodumps successfully, but only of what one can get away with, if one is a bestselling author [or one who wrote over a century ago, for readers who didn't mind the pesky things!]...
     
  14. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I like reading infodumps personally but I am an information nerd I like to know. They were the best bits of Victor Hugo.
     
  15. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Actually, my point was that they were not "infodumps" at all, because the information they presented had a connection to their stories, and the term itself has come to be misused. It has become so misused that relevant and useful information is now much too hastily classified as an "infodump".

    All four of the authors I cited are verbose. As it happens, I am attracted to writers who lay out their story in detail. Mammamaia does not seem to be (neither is my wife). Viva la difference.
     
  16. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I agree with that.

    The prime info dump is in the horror movie genre, as I previously mentioned. Let's say the movie focuses on werewolves in a universe where no one has heard of them. Invariably, the MCs will go into an Inn and meet some old person who knows everything about werewolves and tell them the origin, how one becomes one, and how to kill a werewolf. This is bizarre because the man has not passed this info to the world so they can come and kill all the werewolves. So, he's not a naturalistic character but a plot device.

    That's the most annoying info dump for me.
     
  17. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    The problem with discussions on 'terms' is that it's easy to come up with any definition or example one wants to suit their personal opinions or beliefs.

    The prime example is 'show, don't tell' where people will debate the merits of these idiotic terms, and then at times point to prose that is very clearly 'telling' and say it's not telling, but showing, since it's 'told well.' /facepalm

    The worst was a workshop where people argued about whether my story was in first or third person, no joke, despite the manuscript being right there in front of everyone. When someone finally did cite the manuscript, several people tried to argue that even though it was in third person, it was a first-person STYLE third person prose. /facepalm

    I agree that too many people want to just toss around terms. They don't like something in a story, but don't know how to actually express an in-depth, refined perspective on what's occurring with the craft elements of fiction, so they simply throw out a term like 'infodump' or 'show, don't tell' and think they've done their job.

    The problem is that it goes both ways. People just as often defend poor writing by dismissing any feedback that clumsily uses these terms. Someone says something one wrote is bad because it's 'infodump,' and the reaction is to try to redefine the term or decry the use of the term or show how the term could also be applied to things that are well written.

    The point many writers miss is that even when terms are misused or inadequate to describe what's occurring in a manuscript, it's still almost always pointing to something that is simply not working well.

    In just about every workshop group ever, whether in college or private writing groups, one can track this occurrence. At some point someone refers to a term, whether a 'good' one or 'bad' one, because it's the simplest way to understand and interact with a text. So, someone says something like 'I really didn't think the first-person perspective was working.' Inevitably, some people agree and some disagree. In bad workshops, it becomes a pointless discussion about point of view that teaches very little and goes nowhere. In good workshops the instructor or leader guides others into looking deeper. And 99% of the time it wasn't the POV that was a problem, but something else, it's just that POV was the easiest thing to talk about.

    Infodump is the easy thing to talk about, so what people latch onto in discussions like this. You try to bring up actual craft perspectives, and it goes back to examples relevant only to the terms, not the craft of writing fiction.

    The real issues is that most passages of fiction that can be reasonably referred to as 'infodump,' whether the term is use properly or is a pointless term to begin with, almost always have something wrong with them that could be strengthened.

    The goal of every writer imo should be to write the best they can and to learn the craft of writing. Instead, many amateur writers know more terms and ways to debate them than they actually do anything related to the actual crafting of fiction. I blame the internet, where everyone is an expert as long as they can find the 'post' button on their blog (my blog started out as a mockery of all the terrible writing blogs, then became more serious, so I'm guilty as charged).

    The point is there are more important things to discuss than the terms. Terms are necessary, but best used when they're leading into deeper discussions (which happens a surprisingly limited amount of time in groups of writers, which alarms me).

    Want to contemplate infodump? Then contemplate the fact that anytime someone points to it, they may not have the refinement to express exactly what isn't working in one's manuscript, but more than likely something is definitely not working in the text. Instead of trying to justify the use of a term/technique or excuse it, or undermine the feedback by arguing the definition of the term, just look at the text and re-examine why someone might have tried, even inadequately, to point out a spot that needed work.

    Infodump is bad, because it's a term used to refer to writing that isn't working. It may be working for other reasons, but if you're getting feedback saying something was infodump, I'll bet dollars to donuts that despite all the archaic or anomalous examples that can be given, something is very clearly NOT working in that particular section of a manuscript.

    But, you're all right, it all depends on the definition of the word 'is,' right?
     
  18. Edward G

    Edward G Banned

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    Great example!
     
  19. cmcpress

    cmcpress New Member

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    No one's talking about wrapping things up in to a neat little package - we're talking about allowing the reader to suspend disbelief. There's nothing wrong with some ambiguity as to character motivations (in the case of serial killers for example it's often better to leave what made them a killer out of the story as it humanises them and removes some of the terror) and there's nothing wrong with the reader filling in some of the details, but a characters actions have to be believable.

    If the hero, a meat packer from New Jersey with a chip on his shoulder suddenly diffuses a nuclear bomb it makes more sense and is more believable if you know beforehand that prior to working as a meat packer he was a disgraced bomb specialist and that the chip on his shoulder came from him feeling the work was below him.

    (Now i'm not saying WHEN we should tell the reader - if this is the first scene it might be more dramatic to tell the reader this after the bomb has been diffused).

    The writer needs to provide enough information for you to read a story and not to sit there going "aw, come on".

    Most people nowadays view Deus Ex Machina as clumsy writing for example.

    But they might identify that the chair is made of plastic, or leather. Both of these would have implications as to what kind of lounge the character was in and whether the chair was comfortable or not - and this has an effect on a characters mindset.

    That could be a good example of bad writing though.
     
  20. cmcpress

    cmcpress New Member

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    Well, language is flexible, and it is open to interpretation. Semantical arguments are only really useful though if they move towards a definition of terms that people can agree on.

    I must admit "infodumps" to me seemed to mean any "dumping of information" within a storyline (such as exposition). But the OP did clearly mention irrelevant infodumps.

    And people have touched on style in relation to infodumps which i agree with.

    The question then is what is irrelevant?

    Some little details within the narrative may be strictly not relevant to the plot but they can add to atmosphere.
     
  21. Show

    Show Contributor Contributor

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    I do like how we're supposed to read to find out the way to write successfully, yet the stuff we read is always the "anomaly" and thus we can't follow it. Of course my inner philosopher says that anybody who gets published automatically becomes an anomaly.

    There will ALWAYS be something that isn't working for somebody in a novel. It is truly impossible to write something that somebody will not believe is not working. So basically, infodump refers to anything somebody thinks is not working? Thus the term itself is even more useless than the stuff it describes. Somebody tells me I have an infodump; it's becoming difficult to seriously consider what they think is lacking cause the term is so overused.

    Life is an infodump. Random writer's bumper sticker moment. :p
     
  22. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Irrelevant to me in this context means that the information provided does not help move the story foward and does not help the reader to know any of the characters in a deeper way so as to understand their motivations or their world.

    The word "infodump" is pejorative, but there are those who use the term as shorthand for any exposition not immediately related to the plot. From that, one may infer that ANY background exposition is bad. And it is that with which I took issue.

    mammamaia pointed up an important distinction: there are numerous examples of exposition which provide useful background information to the plot or characters that some readers will find burdensome. This doesn't mean that the information should not have been provided; it means that this is one more area in which tastes vary. MM says she does not like detailed background material, while I like it very much. In neither case does that make it a rule.

    A few posters have mentioned that those of us who either are or hope to be published must function in a world ruled by word-count. I'm reminded of a scene in the film "Amadeus", in which Mozart has just finished conducting "Abduction from the Seraglio" for the emperor, and he is criticized because the music had "too many notes". "There are just as many notes as my music requires," he says, "neither more nor less." It's easy to feel the same way about the words we write.

    But the truth is that word-count is an issue, and so there will naturally be a winnowing down of anything submitted for publication. That should not mean that we are afraid to write the words in the first place if we think they belong.
     
  23. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Nuclear bombs will diffuse themselves if left to their own devices, and this is a bad thing for anybody nearby. "Defuse", perhaps?
     
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  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    The important thing to take away is that all of the "rules" that people throw around in writing forums are really just guidelines. You can do whatever you like, so long as you do it well. I wouldn't treat the published works as "anomalies" when they don't follow rules you hear espoused on internet forums - just use them to help you place advice on writing sites in the proper context.

    Another thing you can take away from published fiction, in my view, is that being a good story-teller and telling a compelling story is a lot more important than knowing every last thing about the technical aspects of writing, grammar, and the like. If you tell a compelling story and tell it well, but without absolute technical proficiency, your chances of getting published are much higher than if you are technically flawless but can't tell an interesting to save your life.
     
  25. cmcpress

    cmcpress New Member

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    ha - i thought that didn't look right! :D
     

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