Cutting words: Why?

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by minstrel, May 11, 2018.

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  1. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I definitely have trouble with that as well. It's part of why I try particularly hard to provide the explanation -- if I can put into words why XYZ isn't working for me in someone else's piece, I'll be more able to identify problems in my own work beyond just going, "Oh, I hate this. This sucks. It's bad," and noodling around with reorganizing and adding and cutting bits and pieces of one paragraph for half an hour (which I wish was an exaggeration).

    One time -- years ago, different forum -- I got feedback that was literally just highlighting a sentence and the comment, "Don't write like this." I have no idea what was wrong with that sentence but it always stuck with me. My goal is to not be that guy for someone else. (And for what it's worth, at least rewrite examples are a step up from that!)
     
  2. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    If a voice coach told a blues singer his breath control was poor, and he shouted, "BUT I'M A BLUES SINGER. STOP TRYING TO MAKE ME INTO AN OPERA SINGER!" it would make no sense, since all singers need good breath control. It's about technique, not style. So sure, he could argue that running out of breath was part of his style, but it's a) silly b) not going to make him a better singer or get him a recording contract.

    And that's I'm talking about. Writers who can't take critique often defend their poor writing by claiming it's part of their style or voice. It's not.

    I don't know who these people are. An example would be helpful. :p
     
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  3. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Thanks, Izzy, you get it.
     
  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Could you stop suggesting that people who don't agree with you don't understand what you're saying, rather than disagree with it? You've said you feel defensive because of perceived problems with sentence construction (fwiw I think your sentences are fine) but the thread isn't about you, and there's no need to make things personal.
     
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  5. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Better example...

    Formal vs. informal. If the sentence is informal in tone, don't make it sound like the Queen is speaking.

    Is that clearer?

    ETA Or let's take my non-fiction work as an example. If the piece I've written has a very casual tone and voice, lots of contractions, etc., to throw in a sentence that uses "cannot" instead of "can't" would look odd and out of place, yes?

    This is what I mean by voice.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  6. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I've definitely seen that happen (and definitely defended my own shitty writing with "that's my style, man, you just don't get it" as a youngun), but imo it can also be the case that in critiquing something, you step all over the original writer's voice or even meaning without intending to. I do think that there are bad critiques.

    It sucks to deal with because the strongest you can object to it is, "Well, I disagree, but thanks," without coming off as a whiny asshat, but ... I do think it's a thing.

    I can assure you that I probably don't.
     
  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Oh yeah, it definitely happens. But I see way more of the "that's my style, man, you just don't get it" than actual occasions of someone's voice/style being trampled over. I've also done the, "You just don't get it!!!1" thing. I think we all have, even if it's just to ourselves. :D

    I don't even see a need to do that, unless the critiquer is asking for feedback on their critique. I would just say thank you, and do all the disagreeing internally. But I do have a real thing about people arguing with anybody who's taken the time to read and critique their work, even if they did a terrible job of it.
     
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  8. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    But what the squirrel and I were saying is, it's happening more often lately. And it's useless and unhelpful and time wasting. So why can't we all strive to be better? Don't some of the critiquers aspire to be editors? An editor has to match the voice of the publication, after all.

    Or I suppose they can continue to give utterly useless critiques and people will continue talking behind their backs about it to save their egos and the Forum becomes a laughing stock. as people go elsewhere for real help.
     
  9. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    For sure. I guess I tend to see more of the "if you disagree with a critique, it's because your writing is bad" (I'm watering that down) sentiment than I do people actually overreacting on behalf of their sweet style. It's probably that thing where there seem to be tons more people complaining about how annoying and preachy vegans are than there actually are annoying and preachy vegans.

    Yeah, I almost never do in practice -- I maybe grouse about it to my friends in private but then go, "Hey, thanks!" when it matters.

    I do wonder, though, if it wouldn't be more useful to all of us if we did more to encourage people to critique better. It often feels like anything but a humble thank-you is likely to be met with snippiness (unless the critiquer explicitly indicated that they'd be interested in a discussion), when you might both be able to get more out of the interaction with a simple, "Wait, what? I don't see what you mean. I was trying to do XYZ."

    But, I can tell you right now that I'm in no way socially adept enough to navigate that shit, so I'll just keep going "hey thanks" and moving on.
     
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  10. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Actually, I said, to @ChickenFreak that a better description of my issue is deconstructing and reverse engineering example sentences, not construction.

    ETA: I also said I was sensitive about it, not defensive because of it. Very different things, with different meanings. Sensitive = painful. Defensive = angry connotation.
     
  11. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I don't think they are "utterly useless" and I don't think it's anything to do with ego (at least, not on the critiquer's side) so no, I don't agree.

    I think asking for clarification is fine, and a writer should definitely do that if they don't understand where a critiquer is coming from. I don't count that as arguing and totally agree that workshop threads are way more productive when there's a discussion rather than a load of critique thrown at the writer with no response.
     
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  12. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    If I've posted three sentences, and the edit turned those three into the exact voice of someone's usual posting voice rather than sounding like I wrote it, that's not useless? They've just wasted their time. I'm trying not to waste their time.

    To answer your earlier question, Neil Strauss is an extremely successful ghostwriter --I would argue a famous ghostwriter. His specialty is celebrity autobiographies, and he's known for his ability to write exactly like the celebrity speaks. Nikki Sixx is a rock star, and Neil Strauss co-authored the band's autobiograhy. So, his work on Nikki's section of the book sounded exactly like Nikki, his work on the guitarist's section sounded like him, etc.

    Neil Strauss is like the "man of a thousand voices" for celebrity autobiographies due to his ability to imitate their manner of speaking.

    ETA: So when I said "Be Neil Strauss to my Nikki Sixx" I was saying help me to write better so it still sounds like me.
     
  13. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I hope my revisions in the 3-sentence thread weren't the cause of this. I have a few of them in the last pages over there, and now this thread appears . . . I feel like I'm being Voldemorted but no one will just outright say "Seven's edits are too aggressive." Let me know if that's the case. I'm not mean and don't want to come off that way. It stresses me thinking that I've wrecked a forum.

    In three lines, you can only talk about the word, phrase, and sentence. And even the sentence is pretty limited. You're mostly shifting phrases for meaning and adding a word or two (the lowest levels, unless you're a badass like Borges who can see the infinite). The rest (graph, scene, arc, story) you can only guess at. Hopefully it's a good guess based on those three lines . . . I don't think I can give effective critique without examples, and it makes sense to use the original sentences as the examples. I can hit the foundations (vocabulary, grammar, style, discourse), but can't just describe them. If I say: "Consider your linearization, work on micro-level coherence, use a performative in place of narration," it would just be gobbledygook and kind of useless. I don't even like how they sound, so no one else will.

    I don't think I changed anyone's voice in my edits. I'm sure I used words they wouldn't have, but that doesn't matter; they're just placeholders to build on. My main concern with the sentences I choose to edit is that the voice isn't in front. I hear it faintly, but IMO, it's typically smothered. If you can crush empty phrases and workaday connectives that are just functional in the sentence, like mortar gobbed into a wall, you free up room to put in meaningful detail with the voice at the front. It's not about saying the same thing with less words; it's about saying more with purposeful words. That should be your goal in edits.

    I have a book on the shelf (I'm not sure which) that recommends you scour each graph for the weakest sentence. When you find it, delete it and adjust your graph. Try to do it every time. I've always loved that advice. I edit like that but at the phrase level. Then I come back in reverse and see if I can add anything to build: (in this order) character/plot/setting.

    For the record, if I edited your sentences in that thread, it's because I liked them, so don't take anything I offered as an insult.
     
  14. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    I don't know if the squirrel had anyone specific in mind, but with regard to my posts here, no, @Seven Crowns I wasn't referring to any of your edits. Yours haven't appeared to strip the voice away in your edits, that I can see.
     
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    The problem, though, is that critiques of critiques are at least as subjective as the original critiques were. That is, there are different critique styles and different approaches that are appreciated by different people. There's no central authority on what makes a "good" critique and therefore it's pretty hard to imagine one way for people to critique "better".

    In this thread alone we've had, I think, two people who've said they don't like rewrites and don't like the way critiques are currently being done, and quite a few others who've disagreed with their criticisms. I know I often see critiques I think are spot-on being ignored by the poster while other critiques are centred out for extra thanks.

    It's all just opinion. As long as everyone remembers that, I'm not sure there's a lot of room for anyone telling anyone else how those opinions should be expressed.
     
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  16. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, agree here. Style and voice take thousands of words to assert themselves... or at least to establish some kind of consistency that can be defined and evaluated. We should probably draw a hard line between the three sentence thing and longer workshop pieces since the critique of the former, as you said, tends to be limited.
     
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  17. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    OK now I'm really confused. So are you guys saying that my voice won't be in my first three sentences? Because all I'm trying to do is perfect the three opening sentences that are supposedly the most important in the whole damn thing.

    Or are you saying it's my job to go back and add that to the bare sentence you've come up with @Seven Crowns ? Because I honestly would not know I'm supposed to add anything. If you've stripped adjectives (or whatever it may be), I'm going to assume there shouldn't be any.

    Truly trying to grasp this concept. Help...

    ETA: If it helps, I'm coming from a newspaper background where the mantra is "cut not add". So when an editor cuts, that's it. There's no adding back.

    edited for typo
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    My view is that every word, phrase, whatever, should earn its keep. But it can earn its keep in many ways. Maybe it's informative. Maybe it's necessary information. Maybe it adds style. Maybe it adds local color. Maybe it rambles but I want a rambling mood.

    When I write, the bit that I've written tends to first shrink and then grow. I write. Then I find the unnecessary words and phrases, the ones that mean nothing, and cut them. Then I feel a bareness and add things that do mean something. I may go through that cycle more than once. So my goal isn't minimum words so much as hard-working words.
     
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  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I think those are excellent goals, for what my opinion is worth. And I also think the 'examples' you generate to support your suggestions here on the forum are extremely apt—as I've said many times before. You have a knack for creating a picture that's worth a thousand words. You illustrate what you mean very well.

    I don't think anybody sees your re-written examples as something they need to literally adopt. Your examples just illustrate a particular approach. And you often give many different 'approaches' to the same problem, so you're not taking over and being dictatorial either. That's a talent I think many people on the forum really appreciate.

    ............

    @BayView suggested that my comment about critiquing/reviewing was not quite on target when it comes to the thread's purpose. She's right. I had responded to what was being talked about just before I made the comment, because I hadn't read the whole thread.

    So... I went back and read the start of the thread, which @minstrel began, and I now see where things kind of deviated from the OP. Not a bad discussion, by the way. But the thread evolved into a discussion about critiques in general, while the OP's point was about cutting words in the 'first three sentences' thread.

    I go on record as supporting his point of view on this. But it also underscores why I don't visit the 'first three sentences' thread very often. I think three sentences is way too short a snippet from somebody's story or novel to give a strong flavour of the writing.

    Because we only have three sentences to look at, we end up critiquing the sentences themselves, as if we were English teachers, rather than focusing on the purpose of the sentences—which is to launch a story in a particular direction.

    Critiquing sentences is not a bad exercise, in itself, but I think it's a mistake to focus too strongly on 'improving' sentences, when they are the start of a story that you would otherwise keep reading. Obviously grammatical mistakes can be pointed out ...but even that can trip you up. What if the writer is purposely using bad grammar at the start, as part of his narrator's 'voice?'

    The problem, as I see it, isn't so much bad critiquing, but the fact that we don't have enough of a sample to work with in the 'three sentences' thread. Maybe it would help if the writer could preface his or her first three sentences sample with some notion of what the overall story is about, and what the first three sentences are followed by? Or something like that?

    Obviously, if the first three sentences are so bad you would NOT keep reading, that should be part of your response. But. If you WOULD keep reading, then ...just keep reading. But you can't because the sample stops there. That's why I don't much like that particular thread.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  20. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Very much so, yes @ChickenFreak .
     
  21. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    No, your voice/style will be everywhere, but you can't pin it down and define it from a snippet. Same thing with music. What's Jimmy Page's style? If the only song you ever heard was "Black Dog" you'd think it was one thing. Or if you've only heard "The Battle of Evermore" you'd think it was something else. Listen to the entire album and you'll have the perspective to see how his unique style permeates all the tracks. Not the greatest analogy, but you get the idea.
     
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  22. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    OK thank you. That was my understanding, so there's one down. Cool.
     
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  23. honey hatter

    honey hatter Banned

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    Oh my god guys hitting it out of the ballpark with those Ideas there... Ideas i get. Those really jumped out at me and made more sense to me. CF I love to ramble, if my prose doesnt have a flower pinned in her hair i'm just not turned on by her. I think i'm starting to get an idea. Maybe it rambles but I want a rambling mood.

    Homer
    i love a good musical analogy and Jimmy Page's music is some of the first i experienced.

    Going to go back and reread the other posts, the light she is a shining!
    *tips hat*
     
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. Totally agree. We need to hear/read more than just a snippet to make a good judgement, don't we?
     
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  25. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Well, yes, you were one of the critiquers I had in mind when I started this thread, but for what it's worth, I wasn't trying to Voldemort you or to suggest your edits were too aggressive. And you certainly haven't "wrecked a forum" - you've helped instigate a lively discussion of a writing topic, and that's exactly what this forum is for. You've strengthened and enlivened the forum, not wrecked it! :)

    My initial post was about why you (and many others) recommend cutting words. Forgive me, but where I come from, if someone doesn't explain the why of something they're asking, it's likely they don't know themselves. (Parent: "Wear the blue shirt, not the red one!" Child: "Why?" Parent: "Because I said so!" This is not a satisfying answer.) I'm not suggesting that you don't know what you're talking about, but if you don't give an explanation, you're not giving me a reason to trust your suggestion.

    Somewhere above in this thread, @Tenderiser said "critiques often suggest cutting words because learning how to write tightly is important." I almost yelled at the screen, because it's an example of what I'm getting at. Why is it important? I mean, I understand why in certain cases - I try to write as precisely and concisely as I can when I do technical writing - but not in others. Personally, I enjoy fairly loose writing; most of what I read is pretty indulgent stuff. Kipling, Steinbeck, Conrad, Burgess, Nabokov, McCarthy, and so on don't write "tightly," but they write well.

    This forum has a large population of inexperienced writers. It also has comparatively few experienced writers, and even fewer traditionally published writers. This results in a fairly high number of pieces by inexperienced writers being critiqued by equally inexperienced writers. This can be very helpful to both, provided the critiquer understands why he or she is suggesting their changes. It isn't useful to either the original writer or the critiquer for the critiquer to say, "Make this change and it saves three words." There's no explanation of why saving three words is a good idea. Shorter sentences are not necessarily better sentences. They can be, and the critiquer may have a perfectly sound reason to suggest shortening a sentence, but just saying, "Shorter sentences are better" is not that reason. It is never that reason.

    A critiquer might suggest deleting an adverb. The writer might legitimately ask, "Why did you suggest that?" Simply saying that adverbs are always bad is not a good reason - adverbs are not always bad. The critiquer should explain why that particular use of that particular adverb isn't a good idea. That way, the writer learns something. If the critiquer doesn't know why he's suggesting the deletion of the adverb ("Because Stephen King doesn't like adverbs!" is not an answer - why doesn't Stephen King like adverbs?), then he should figure it out before suggesting it. That way, both the writer and the critiquer learn something.

    In my original post, I deliberately didn't name anyone specifically who suggests cuts without adequate explanation. I also agree with many of the critiques that suggest cuts - I'm an experienced enough writer to spot most problems myself, I think. I'm not trying to tell anyone their critiques aren't valid. I simply want critiquers to explain why they suggested the cuts. Just saying, "It's better that way" isn't helpful, in my somewhat humble opinion. :)
     

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