Back when I was dancing, if after your performance someone said "I love your costume!" and didn't follow up with positive feedback about your actual dancing, that was 100% code for "You sucked, but I have to find something nice to say to keep the wheels of polite society oiled." It was particularly painful coming from the more famous and accomplished dancers in the scene.
Ass kissing isn't helpful when you're trying to improve something, you know? Just focus on the parts that will help you get your work done. To clarify, the work in question I've observed those things being said about wasn't mine. It's that I've heard everything that's said to the creative person's face in the meeting, and then heard what the powers that be really thought in the behind the closed doors discussions that continue after the creative person has gone. The other day @Homer Potvin said something about how people in the publishing business, and the agents, don't care about the writer's feelings at all so you have to have thick skin, or no skin at all or something (I'm trying to paraphrase from memory here, please let me know if I got this wrong, Homer!!!). He got slammed for it, which was a shame, because I thought he was spot on, particularly if he'd substituted Hollywood for publishing. Every word of that post is how creatives are often treated. Shit has to get done on a tight schedule, and production is expensive. So not a lot of pleasantries when people are working on a project on little sleep. I'm notorious for forgetting to say "please" in a request. I go out of my way to remember the thank yous and probably overdo them, to try to make up for the fact that I'm so bad with the please! (Pasadena is gorgeous by the way. I love the old houses.)
Yes!!!! That's it exactly! Another really good example is that scene in Sunset Boulevard (which should be required viewing for everyone IMHO, but that's just me) where CB DeMille says, regarding a script, "Well, there are good things in it, yes..." It's code for it sucks! Or in The Way We Were: "It's getting...better." That means there's no hope. ETA: It's cool by the way if people tell me it sucks, if they can tell me how to make it not suck. I have an alpha reader who says "that scene sucked" and I love it.
What are you talking about in this thread? I feel like every post from you is more puzzling than the last. Homer didn't get "slammed" for anything. I disagreed with him. That's all. (And, honestly, saying 'I thought he was spot on, particularly if he'd been talking about something else' is a really weird way to support his argument...) For someone who apparently thinks false accusations are "a street fight waiting to happen," you seem to be making a lot of false accusations. Is it possible for you to dial it all back a little? This is just a thread on a writers' site. Nobody's getting slammed or having street fights or anything else. We're just agreeing or disagreeing with each other. It's all fine.
That was the gist of it, though I don't remember the slamming part. Bay disagreed but I didn't get around to clarifying what I meant. I wasn't referring to personal feelings or interpersonal respect and courtesy, but rather to "creative" feelings for those authors (and people in general) who misinterpret professional criticism as personal offense. My point about the "no skin" was directed toward writing things, not personal feelings.
LOL--Yeah, that's actually what I'm trying to say. I was referring to the work but you just phrased it far better and more clearly than I. My paragraph sucked. ETA: But what I meant was, as part of trying to get the work done, the language to the creative on a project gets terse. But still, it's all about the work.
I feel like this was uncalled for, if you have a disagreement with Shenanigator, there are better ways of handling it then this. This is just rude Clearly there was a misunderstanding here
Um...I think we're having a slang issue here. When I slay slammed I don't mean hit hard or by multiple people like the old school useI think you're inferring here. It simply means to disagree strongly. "slammed with someone else's truth" is the extended meaning of this slang. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. Street fight waiting to happen certainly wasn't literal either. Means dumpster fire.
I'll start this with the preface that I haven't read the whole thread, I've more... skimmed, so it's entirely possible I've missed something. I think this particular post comes across as condescending though. This comment in particular: comes across, to me, like one that should have the word "sweetie" at the end of it. I'm not trying to jump into an argument or anything, just saying that I can see why things get out of hand. Also, I think that @Shenanigator jumped at shadows with Tenderisers comment. Basically, I don't really know what's going on here, but it's a mess. On (I think?) topic - Voice is something I always try to preserve and I also find it offensive when people completely rewrite something with no thought to the other person's voice. My response to that though is just to take what I can from it and discard the rest (though that's my approach with all crit).
That is a very good point, and clarifies my own concerns of my work ceasing to be mine. There seems to be a fine line between critique and preserving
It's been awhile since I've done a crit, but generally speaking I will say "I wouldn't use this word, and it works for your intended use, but maybe consider this word instead". Honestly, if it's not just grammar stuff, it's hard for me to clarify a lot of my reasoning other than this "This tripped me up" or "I had to read this twice" or sometimes, though I hate having to do it "Honestly I just can't read anymore of this, I have no idea what's going on or why, and I don't care to find out". Usually those I won't even bother with because I feel bad saying it.
Do you two think you could take this elsewhere, like personal message or WWE SummerSlam! Someone talking about street fighting, you seem pretty combative!
Both of those--"slammed" and "street fight"--sound like they're intended as a description of an attack. Milder language would probably be less prone to giving that impression. (I also didn't see Bayview's response in the "thick skin in the publishing world" discussion as "disagree strongly". I just saw it as "disagree".)
@minstrel hey, can we get a clamp on this this argument before it gets out of control please. If you guys want to argue about it there's a thread for that I'm sure or personal conversation
So maybe this is actually a way to get this thread back on track! I don't think it's a shame when people express differing opinions about something - I think it's a reflection of reality. Just as when we critique (see, back on track! YAY!) we will see things differently and it's a strength if we all express those varied opinions, explore areas of commonality and areas of difference, and come to better understand different perspectives. If I read a critique of someone else's work and I don't agree with the critique, I can disagree with it and explain my reasons and we can all learn and explore. And if I get a critique that I don't agree with, I probably won't post my disagreement, but I certainly don't think it's a shame the critique was posted. If it's not useful to me, hopefully it will be useful to the larger community, or to the person who made it, or whatever. Disagreement is good, in my world. It's a great way to learn.
Well, if you're sure you really want to know... It was the dismissive manner in which you did it, not the fact that you disagreed with him. Your dismissive tone was my issue, as it was when you said the thing that @Trish and @John-Wayne just now defended me on. It was off topic, and it was Homer's post, not mine, so I didn't pick it up, but had the discussion been germane I would have said exactly what I just said to @John-Wayne about the Hollywood part. And for clarification, by "Hollywood", I mean the system an author at a full service agency (movies, TV, music, Books, multimedia) is put through, when, for example, their book is made into a movie. That's how it relates to what @Homer Potvin said about publishing and how authors are treated. In Hollwood, at a large agency they're very interconnected and packaged together. (A specific example I had in mind with regard to Hollywood was the stuff Anne Rice went through with Interview with the Vampire. That whole thing was brutal on her as an author. That's what I meant by Hollywood and the system.) I've been jumped on a lot here, and it wasn't even my thread. The squirrel started the thread, and I agreed with him. Yet I got all the heat from the beginning. ETA: To clarify, I have no issue with heat, obviously. But getting jumped on for agreeing? Not cool.
Truly, @ChickenFreak they're not violent terms in modern L.A. slang use. Had I known the slang wouldn't have been understood I would have used different words. Truly. That's just common slang where I live, and my friends and I use them so often it never even occurred to me that they might be perceived another way. I didn't realize it hadn't traveled that far. If you knew my laid back speaking voice and heard it instead of saw it in print, the perception would have been different, I'm sure. But I definitely apologize for the misunderstanding and my lack of clarity there.
I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think it's a critiquer's job to match the author's voice or worry about their intended purpose... I think the critiquer's job is to give their honest reactions to a piece. It's the author's job to filter and apply critique.
I actually agree with this, and find that respectful disagreement and discussions are a fantastic way to learn. I think the problem happens when people feel like they're not being heard or that other people are just dismissing them (whether that was the intent or not). Feelings are strange, and often don't make sense. If someone thinks something I think is a shame, I just think that they don't share my perspective. Sometimes that's upsetting (depending on situation) but in writing - meh. We're all different and different things work for all of us. I think, personally, just beating it to death is where people start to feel attacked, but I think it's in our nature to want others to see things our way, and to be heard. I feel like rude things have been said on both sides. On topic - Crits move in cycles here and will continue to do so, I'm sure.
Perception is everything. So, here's what I see happening. You perceive them being dismissive, they perceive you being aggressive, then they resort to condescending because more aggression won't help, but now they feel attacked, and the circle goes round and round. The funny thing is, if you take a breath, you guys aren't actually disagreeing I don't think. You're just coming from different directions.
I agree entirely. However, I also think their are some critters (not the fuzzy kind) who tend to completely rewrite something. I've done it, though I try to explain why and tell them "of course, rewrite in your own words". I don't think it's intended as disrespectful (ever) but I personally find it annoying. It doesn't mean I don't want them to bother though. I still appreciate the effort and take from it what I can. I think that's probably what it comes down to - it's our responsibility to take what we can use and discard the rest. Anyone who crits - it's their opinion and they're never infallible. None of us are. Would it be great if everyone explained why? Of course it would, but they're not going to.
I agree with you on this, Bay. That's why I was taken aback when I felt like I was being dismissed. So I kept trying to clarify, because I thought I wasn't writing clearly. No excuses, but my dyslexia does play a role here. I know what's in my head but it may not necessarily make it to the screen in the same way or same order. So sometimes I literally don't know if what I've written is clear. Also, guys, and this applies to all the threads, not just this one... No excuses, but sometimes it takes me a while to compose a post. So, sometimes four or five posts roll by by the time I hit post reply. I'm sure that plays a role here too. Like a few minutes ago, I hit reply to see that Bay and Trish are saying something because their posts arrived while I was still trying to write. I'm sure that causes misunderstandings.
