Dead Genres/Genre Variants

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by Berenice, Oct 15, 2011.

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  1. Berenice

    Berenice New Member

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    I invented these names! If you read back I wrote that the whole vampire/supernatural monsters field already once was as dead as hyena bait. There was a high time of it during the 1910s to 1930ies with the Karloff and Lugosi movies, as well as the other monster movies, and then it degraded into throwing mega-monsters at each other - like Godzilla at Dracula or whatever. That was the moment when this genre of horror was absolutely dead for more than 2 and a half decades. Then things perked up with Hammer horror movies, which had sexy monsters for the first time.

    I never said that there have been no good monster stories since. I said the whole supernatural genre was dead meat at the time and for quite a chunk of years afterwards.

    It's highly doubtful anyone will achieve that via copycat stories.

    As to literary worth, by reading, as do others. I don't think there will be many serious literary critics rating Gaiman over Kipling. When Gaiman has won a Nobel prize in literature we can discuss that again, I'd say.

    I like most Shakespeare, but not all of it. But that's beside the point. It's also beside the point whether or not Gaiman acknowledges he ripped the plot off The Jungle Book. It stays a rather boringly written book without much novel in it.

    You're essentially making my argument. I never said I liked My Fair Lady, I simply pointed out that this is one of the very few better examples. Per se re-usage of this kind tends to fail.

    Well, it entirely depends on which level of copying you see taking place. And Gaiman copied a lot more than just a theme in my opinion.
     
  2. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    But only just, so the screenplay for the Buffy movie must have been written before The Vampire Diaries was published. That almost certainly means that neither was a rip-off of the other.
     
  3. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Well, you invented a minor variant on the name of a fairly successful 1962 movie!
    So you don't see "dead" as being a permanent state? Well, I suppose that's appropriate to the genre. If you simply mean that at the popular end there are too many potboilers being produced than I agree, but the existence of Mills and Boone doesn't mean that the romance genre is dead, it just means that you need to look somewhere else. For example, vampires and werewolves have both appeared in the revamped Dr. Who series. The werewolves were fairly conventional, but the vampire wasn't.
    I thought you were saying that it was dead now.
    All stories are copycat stories.
    And if my view of literary worth disagrees with yours?
    In the early 20th century literary merit was largely decided by how well one argued for an established set of small-c conservative ideals, which Kipling did admirably, and it was accepted that certain elite groups determined what had worth. Both of those ideas were undermined in the 20th century and there are now at least three models for assessing literary worth: the inherency model (that literary worth is an objective characteristic of the text itself), the academy model (that literary worth is decided by a selected group of those who supposedly know best) and the sociocultural model (that literary worth is decided by individual reading communities -- what I and like-minded people like has literary worth for us, what you and like-minded people like has literary worth for you). The rules of the Hugo award were changed after a Neil Gaiman win to make sure that the same sort of thing could never win again. That's the sort of rocking the boat that I value (and which makes Gaiman unlikely to win the Nobel prize for literature whatever his "actual" literary worth).
    Not entirely -- you say that literary worth is unlikely to be achieved with copycat stories, but most Shakespeare stories are complete copycat stories, down to the names of the characters. Kink Lear is far closer to The Tragedy of Cordelia in A Mirror for Magistrates than The Graveyard Book is to The Jungle Book
    By which you mean you didn't like it. Fair enough -- but are you within the age group it was aimed at?



    You're essentially making my argument. I never said I liked My Fair Lady, I simply pointed out that this is one of the very few better examples. Per se re-usage of this kind tends to fail.



    Well, it entirely depends on which level of copying you see taking place. And Gaiman copied a lot more than just a theme in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
     
  4. Berenice

    Berenice New Member

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    I guess we simply have to agree, we disagree.

    Gaiman is one of your preferred writers, I find him utterly boring and copycat. No need discussing that any longer, we won't get together on that.

    And as you are so hellbent on trying to make Gaiman's point you keep reading past salient points of what I say and then fail in your arguments because you address the wrong points. That's too tiresome to be fun. Have a nice day :D
     

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