1. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    Superhumans and unjust societies

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Accelerator231, Jan 10, 2020.

    So.... a bit of a tangent. Please, bear with me.

    I wish to write realistic superhumans. In other words, people with emotions. Needs. Flaws. People who aren't superman. Who get really angry when threatened. Who look out for their loved ones. Who try and better their lot.

    So, urm..... I'm trying to set it in our world. So here's the thing. Let's say that superman landed on earth..... in a native american reservation. Or in mexico. Or in Iraq. Or in Iran. Or in, hell, anywhere else. Let's say that his parents are black, and one of them is gunned down when on the floor, hands up, by a policeman. The policeman gets off scot free, and a fine is placed on the Kent family for 'emotional distressing the officer'.

    So what does superman do now? I mean, the normal thing is that the system he usually protects is now actively fucking him over. And worse yet, its fucking over innocents. Badly.

    This applies whether you're superman, a Solar Exalt, Harry Potter, or etc. What happens when superheroes don't want to support the system? What happens when dictator of shithole #213, who gets his revenue via oil/ plantations, shoots up a village for protesting for voting rights? Is Superman going to topple him, and establish himself as dictator? When a genocide is actively perpetuated, and superman's loved ones are amongst the victims.... well, what would he do then?

    I've been racking my brains, and the only conclusion I can find is this: Any superhuman of notable power, upon finding a situation that isn't according to their morals and principles, will seek to change it. And they will definitely make some headway, the amount depending greatly on their personal power. In other words, they become the de-facto law, with the governments only ruling because they allow it.

    And I can't find any way out of this reasoning. Anyone got a way out of this logic chain?
     
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  2. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    That does seem to be a logical conclusion for an ambitious superhero. But what if they aren't. What about the superheroes who don't care about how much others suffer, only their own plight. And they are powerful enough that they get left alone. Maybe the corrupt governments pay/bribe this type of superheroes to either actively support their rule or at least not get in the way.

    Also if this is a setting with multiple superheroes each one will effectively have less power, since there are those who could challenge them. And each superhero will be their own person with their own experiences.

    Basically I would approach it first by determining what type of person the superhero is and then figure out how their power would affect them. Despite having superhuman powers they should still act human so start with the human side first.
     
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  3. Thorn Cylenchar

    Thorn Cylenchar Senior Member

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    It depends on their personality.

    1. Aggressive retaliation. Your hero becomes a supervillian, forcibly attacking those who hurt him, or are part of that group. Can serve as a slippery slope to becoming what they hate.

    2. Changing the structure of society. multiple potential goals: a. The oppressed class now are the rulers and the former ruling class is now the oppressed. For a real world example look at Zimbabwe(it is not a perfect comparision but enough to illustrate. b. Anarchy- they decide to rip the entire structure down, even the playing field by making everyone have to start over from zero. c. Utopia-seeks to use their powers to raise up all groups to equal. Well laudable, this would require a character who is a little naive as humans naturally seem to break into groups/cliches.

    3. Indifference: Hide their powers and retreat from society. Not much of a story here unless something happens to force them out of their apathy.

    4. Hedonism: depending on the nature of their powers they might decide to just say 'Fuck it' and do what they want, when they want. Think Will Smith's character from 'Hancock'. Not a hero.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  4. Nesian

    Nesian Active Member

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    Superman is an alien first, with superhuman powers. Imo, their first responsibility is to answer with earnest what happens if he interferes? Is the human race going to suffer in the long term because of his interference? Will it result in another war? Will there be a genocide? Will abuse of power continue to occur no matter what? Is this a human problem that only humans can resolve? i.e Will the human race finally break the cycle of violence and destruction they have been in for thousands of years because of one Alien's actions or will they fall back into the pattern that was established by tyrants and continue to perpetuate and evolve the class system?
     
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  5. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    Take a look at the television show "Heroes" - that show had normal individuals who developed abilities. Sometimes they became heroes, other times they became villians. They were people first and their personalities and circumstances decided how they used they abilities.

    Personally, if it was me in that situation, I'd go batshit crazy, wipe out all the "baddies" that hurt my family and then withdraw from the world and just look out for myself.

    Personally, I never understood why someone would want to rule the world. Do you really want to be responsible for making sure EVERYONE is taken care of? I can see a villain wanting to have power so he can get what he wants - a fresh virgin to have sex with every night perhaps? But otherwise.....
     
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  6. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    That's only if they wish to be a good, responsible ruler. You don't need any moral qualities to be a ruler. Just the power to enforce your might.

    Why do you ask these kind of questions?

    Not being aggressive. I'm serious.

    Yes, but then they aren't a superhero. The issue is this:

    In a world with much injustice, even amongst first world nations, and to nightmarish extent to the worst ones.... how would someone with superpowers deal with it? Most people just keep their heads down. They're just one man after all. But this guy? No. He's going to change things.

    As for multiple superheroes, this just makes things worse. That means that, if you don't wanna get taken over by this guy, then you gotta pay that guy. And that guy wants you to stop oppressing minorities/ oppress minorities/ be a communist/ set up sharia law/ exterminate Israel/ be a trillionaire.

    That means that your entire system of government... is based on superheroes enforcing it.

    And then there's the problem of them deciding to work together.
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not a big fan of superheroes. I kinda quit after Superman and a couple of Batmans. But I never got the notion that they were here to support a system. Rather, they are here to support 'justice' for the little guy. If the bad guys are bucking a 'good' system, which is usually our status quo—Joker, Lex Luthor—and creating havoc for the little guy, then the superhero will fight on the side of the system. But I never got the idea that the superhero would fight to maintain ANY system, good or bad.

    So if the system is bad, I see no reason why the superhero wouldn't fight it.

    Damn. I wish we had a superhero right now.
     
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  8. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Lawyerman! He fights for justice!

    But seriously, Superman is written the way he is (with a "boy scout" personality) because he IS so powerful he could take over the world).

    Most superheroes in the Marvel universe protect their own little corner of the world - mostly New York.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  9. Nesian

    Nesian Active Member

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    You're not serious if it hasn't crossed your mind why these questions need to be asked. You just want to be right when the obvious answer to why is our history as humans make it a necessity to ask these questions.
     
  10. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    Well, if that's your answer, I'm afraid I can't help you.
     
  11. Thorn Cylenchar

    Thorn Cylenchar Senior Member

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    what happens if he interferes?

    Is the human race going to suffer in the long term because of his interference?


    Will it result in another war? Will there be a genocide? Will abuse of power continue to occur no matter what? Is this a human problem that only humans can resolve? i.e Will the human race finally break the cycle of violence and destruction they have been in for thousands of years because of one Alien's actions or will they fall back into the pattern that was established by tyrants and continue to perpetuate and evolve the class system?[/QUOTE]

    This depends on personality. Most people, when pushed far enough tend to hit back. Some people, once they get pushed to the point where they let go, will burn fast and quick and then be ok. They yell, scream, throw plates, but once they let of the excess rage, they are done. Others, once you push them to the point that they lose their temper are not going to stop until they have ground you into a fine bloody paste on the ground, or you manage to incapacitate them enough that they can't move.

    I think the questions you pose are actually not very relevant, just for the reason that most people are not very inclined for deep thinking/self examination. As an alien/outsider, they have even less reason to care/be interested about the future of humanity as a whole. They care about their little group because that's who they know. As they see more, they may come to like/value/care for other groups
     
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  12. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    This depends on personality. Most people, when pushed far enough tend to hit back. Some people, once they get pushed to the point where they let go, will burn fast and quick and then be ok. They yell, scream, throw plates, but once they let of the excess rage, they are done. Others, once you push them to the point that they lose their temper are not going to stop until they have ground you into a fine bloody paste on the ground, or you manage to incapacitate them enough that they can't move.

    I think the questions you pose are actually not very relevant, just for the reason that most people are not very inclined for deep thinking/self examination. As an alien/outsider, they have even less reason to care/be interested about the future of humanity as a whole. They care about their little group because that's who they know. As they see more, they may come to like/value/care for other groups[/QUOTE]
    This.

    I got no idea what you're thinking of, but superman expy here, isn't going to think on the long-term implications of his actions when seeing his family gunned down.

    No, he's going to deal with that shit.

    I mean, what? Do you think over the long-term implications of your actions when its your family that's being cheated/ fucked over/ falsely imprisoned/ persectued/ whatever shit that regimes get up to?

    No!

    You step up, and beat them down, whoever is doing this. To do so otherwise is literally inhuman .
     
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  13. Thorn Cylenchar

    Thorn Cylenchar Senior Member

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    "To do so otherwise is literally inhuman"

    He's an alien, he is literally inhuman. :p
     
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  14. Nesian

    Nesian Active Member

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    This depends on personality. Most people, when pushed far enough tend to hit back. Some people, once they get pushed to the point where they let go, will burn fast and quick and then be ok. They yell, scream, throw plates, but once they let of the excess rage, they are done. Others, once you push them to the point that they lose their temper are not going to stop until they have ground you into a fine bloody paste on the ground, or you manage to incapacitate them enough that they can't move.

    I think the questions you pose are actually not very relevant, just for the reason that most people are not very inclined for deep thinking/self examination. As an alien/outsider, they have even less reason to care/be interested about the future of humanity as a whole. They care about their little group because that's who they know. As they see more, they may come to like/value/care for other groups[/QUOTE]
    It may be a human trait to devalue and value lives based on proximity, but not all humans act this way just as I suppose some Aliens might consider the questions very relevant. Consider, if you will, that their powers came with the capacity to think before using them.
     
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  15. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    Nope. Superman, and majority of other heroes, have shown themselves to have human personalities, emotions, and whatnot.
     
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  16. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    You're ignoring the fact that, despite their superhuman powers, the superhero is also just one person. This is a major weakness that almost all superhumans share; it's at the root of why they have mild-mannered alter egos. They can't be everywhere at once.

    If you want an unjust government to fight against a single just superhero and not be brow-beaten into submission then they simply need enough resources of their own to match or surpass the hero's power. Resources = Power, and it is not strange to think that a government would have far more resources at their disposal than a singular superhero.

    The only real problem would arise if the superhero was so powerful that they were effectively a god in human form with no weaknesses whatsoever. However this is a creative choice (and not a very good one, since readers tend to hate flawless characters) and is far beyond what most people think a superhuman needs to be capable of. Basically make the superhero only as powerful as your plot requires and no stronger. That makes for the most interesting conflicts.
     
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  17. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    "With great power comes great responsibility"
     
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  18. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    Personally, I like to break down questions like this into a character and/or story focused thing. You could go several different routes here. So what's the story you want to tell, or the character arc that you want to focus on? Figure that out, and just make the MC the kind of person you can tell that story through.
     
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  19. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    What about someone with the ability to create multiple copies of himself such as Jamie Maddox, the Multiple Man from the X-Men universe? I'm sure there is a limit on how many copies he can create in the comics but if there wasn't, he could literally be everywhere.

    The other possibly is someone who is fast enough to be everywhere...Superman, the Flash, etc? I guess they need to take breaks for food and sleep but if they did not.....? Does Superman need to eat/sleep?

    I think an individual superhero that wanted to maximize his good deeds could have a computer program scanning for events and bringing the significant ones to his attention, then he could double check and either intervene or not intervene as the case may be. Or perhaps the hero person could have the ability to identify people in great distress and see through their eyes so s/he'd have a direct view of what is going on and then decide whether to intervene - send the police, fly over and get directly involved.....etc, etc...
     
  20. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Other than Superman, which superhero is really powerful enough to change one government, never mind the whole world?

    Thor perhaps. But Batman? Green Lantern? Dr. Fate? Spiderman? Captain America? Iron Man? Dr. Fate? DEADPOOL?

    You can't just beat your way up to the top, and ultimately, you probably wouldn't be able to defeat the entire armed forces of a well developed nation.

    In fact, if Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark really wanted to change the US, for example, they could either run for president or buy influence, they're multi-multi-billionaires. That's more powerful than any repulsor blast.
     
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  21. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    The superhuman doesn't need to just... control everything. He just needs to be powerful enough such that, well, he can supplant their power. Quislings and bootlickers exist everywhere. After toppling one dictator... then he'll just take over. He just needs it so that the people below him won't defy him.
     
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  22. Arsel

    Arsel Active Member

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    Quite honestly, you shouldn't try to find the "logic" response - there is none. Different people would really act in different ways. If you've established a personality for your superhero, make him act consistent to that, no matter if you think it will be perceived as "logical" or not.
    And frankly, I'm tired of the hero's-loved-ones-get-killed-hero-goes-nuts trope.

    Personally, I'd know that petty revenge won't change a systemic problem. Now this may sound corny but I'd actually research the problem (like racist justice in your case) and try to solve it politically or through activism. Because normal people can't hurl fireballs, and your hero is supposed to be one of them right?
    This is also concept that hasn't really been tried before: a superhero who uses their power like we would any dangerous weapon. That is to say, almost never.
    If you look at the current nuclear crisis... there's no actual live bombs involved (yet), but look at what effect their sole presence is having. The threat of something moves a story as much as the danger itself.

    Of course it's easy for someone with two very much alive parents to say that I would be above taking revenge, and if push comes to shove, maybe I wouldn't.
    But your character could.
     
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  23. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Consider, if you will, if your parents had been gunned down in an alleyway and you were mega-rich, what would you do? That's right, you'd dress up in a mammal costume and beat up thugs.

    Imagine being bitten by a radioactive rabbit. Or worse. A radioactive angsty teen.
     
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  24. Arsel

    Arsel Active Member

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    Honestly, I'd just pour more money into the neighborhood. We know that prevention is better than intervention. Good policies are more effective than guys in capes. If you've got money for a batmobile, you've got money for politics.
    I guess if I were a radioactive angsty teenager, I would probably follow the trope and go ballistic.
     
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  25. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    Dr. Doom? Yah, I know he's a villain but he does want to take over the world.....with his smarts, I'm sure he will eventually find a way.
     

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