1. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    Do people seriously not get the difference between forced and organic representation?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by naruzeldamaster, Sep 3, 2021.

    Organic Representation: A movie about a black singer's lifestyle based on true accounts and moments in history.
    Forced Representation: Let's make superman black, because only a black superman can help blacks in the time period where blacks needed a superhero. Even tho white superman can do all the same things black superman can.
    Organic Representation: Let's make a spiderman movie about Miles Moralis because we want to make a movie about a black spiderman. (Miles Morallis is canonically black in the comics for those who don't know)
    Forced Representation: Let's make a spiderman movie where peter parker is black and happens to live in a very particular time period because...reasons.

    I don't mind when minorities are organically added to any story (A couple of my characters are Bisexual because it just seemed natural for them to be that way) but there are times where it does feel well, an afterthought. Or if not an after thought, then it's just an aside to appeal to a market. There's nothing wrong with Minorities in any medium, but I'd prefer it if they weren't used to appease a particular market.

    Some of my favorite actors are black, and one of the funniest characters I seen in a movie is gay. It's not about them being a minority, more the feeling I get when I can tell that they're just kind of...there.
     
  2. montecarlo

    montecarlo Contributor Contributor

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    I don’t get it. People of color shag just like white people do. Isn’t that where minority characters come from? What’s representation have to do with it?

    Who cares if the superhero is black? Why should I notice a black superhero and ask myself if it’s organic or forced?
     
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  3. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    There are plenty of black superheroes that already exist though, the problem isn't the color, it's the fact that they turned a traditionally white character black because...question mark?
    It's not about skin tone, a couple of my favorite superheroes are black (Static Shock and Black panther) it's about why x character is black.
    Sometimes it just feels you know, forced, or added as an afterthought.

    In the superman example, what can a black superman do that's different than a white superman?
    Miles Moralis stands apart from Peter Parker because he has different powers, not just cause he's black. I think it's cool that he's black, but it's not the reason I like him as a character.
     
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  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    The distinction seems arbitrary to me and also highly subjective. You asked if people really don't understand the difference but all you've cited are instances where you personally feel the representation is forced. What you're really asking, it seems, is why everyone doesn't just see things the way you do. FWIW I don't have a problem with any of the examples you characterize as 'forced.'
     
  5. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    I mean I did say the ones I mentioned as forced FEEL forced, but I have no way of confirming if they are forced or not.
    But certain instances do seem that way to me (Like when they made a movie about an ethnically diverse show and casted all asians for the film, there was literally zero reason to do that.) and I was wondering if anyone else felt this way toward particular instances.

    Again, no issue with characters being whatever, but sometimes it does feel like some companies are just going 'woke' with some things. Being Woke is a thing and sometimes it does feel like companies are doing that.
     
  6. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not seeing the difference either. To me, I see it more as a reinterpretation... a chance to tell a familiar story from a new context. Not terribly dissimilar to setting a Shakespearian story in a modern setting. As to whether that reinterpretation feels forced or organic, I would say that is probably determined more by the quality of execution than the validity of the creator's agenda.
     
  7. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    That's what I'm getting at, most of the times I've encountered what feels like 'forced' it seems like it was done for some agenda, or appeal to a particular market.
    I thought respect was a cool movie and my parent's comment was that they only released that film 'now' because of the 'stuff' going on.
    I'm perfectly fine with characters being whatever (One of my favorite characters in Cathrine is trans) but I dunno, certain instances of it feel out of place.
    I also write characters with non standard preferences and also use different skin tones when it makes sense for the character.

    I'm trying to figure out what the hell going Woke actually means so I can discuss it properly.

    Regarding superman, my qualm isn't that he's black, I want to know why he needed to be made black. Any time the writers go 'we feel these things are important' it feels kind of weird.
     
  8. Madman

    Madman Life is Sacred Contributor

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    Back in the day, being woke (or awake) meant you knew about conspiracies and that the world was controlled by a small "Elite" of probably aliens.
     
  9. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    I mean to be fair the biblical definition of 'gay' was expressing merriment and happiness, and it was like that for a LONG time too.
    Now it means something completely different and a particular group of people get really salty when you try to point out that a character they perceive as gay isn't that. (though that's another can of worms entirely)
    I'm pretty sure that's not what Woke means these days though, since people often use it when complaining about so-called forced representation.

    The only time I feel like it's really 'forced' is if that thing is a defining character trait. I can write a full paragraph or more about how I like Phin, the black stormtrooper, without mentioning his ethnicity.
    When I think about the Black superman, I feel like I'd have to point out that he's black and how cool it is that he did whatever he does in that movie.
     
  10. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I don't like it when a politicized agenda is forced onto anything, and it's being done so much these days it's hard to avoid it. This is why I love being outside, with no devices to break the spell of the woods and the birds and the insects and the clouds drifting across the sky. Out there everything is the same as it's always been and hopefully always will be, except that some of the big majestic trees I remember in my childhood are stumps now and the medium-sized trees are now the huge ones.
     
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  11. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Well, everything is designed to appeal to a particular market on some level. Entertainment things more than most, I would venture. "Mass market appeal" isn't really a business plan, though certain things do gain such status. You have to remember, too, that most things Hollywood are geared toward young-ish 18-35 markets, and that demographic is growing increasingly diverse and multicultural on all levels. Exponentially so compared to younger American generations. I'd expect more of it as we go further.
     
  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    :supercool:

    The weird thing is, China doesn't like the woke politics and Hollywood doesn't get that yet.
     
  13. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, but American sponsors and tie-ins do. Once the Chinese start writing the checks, I'm sure that'll change.
     
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  14. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    Might be a good place to mention my dream of producing a remake of the mini-series Roots, with an all-white cast. I'm hoping to get Dax Shepard as Kunta Kinte. No idea what the Chinese will think, though.
     
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  15. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    If Robin Hood can be American, and a Russian submarine captain can be Scottish, then Superman can be black.
     
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  16. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    There was Soviet Union Superman (Superman: Red Son).... there was Batman Ninja....

    At least in the case of Superman, it was an alternate universe and circumstances that made "Clark Kent" into that universe' "Superman".
    Black Superman, and Black Peter, in my opinion, is just like what they did for Red Son. Different time period, different universe, and different circumstances that produced the same superhero, but as a different ethnicity/race/nationality.
    You could argue that her wasnt Clark Kent... But the only reason Clark Kent was who he was WAS because of who found him, named him, and raised him. Red Son--im totally blanking on his name-- was raised differently.

    Both Red Son and Batman Ninja are reimagined versions of beloved superheroes in different eras. Why is it a problem if they are reimagined as black and put in a time period that centers around civil rights?

    (This is me responding without actually knowing that there was a black Peter Parker in ther works, though i did hear something about a black superman...)
     
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  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Here's a cool thing about the MCU that makes it OK for Nick Fury to be black, even though the character we know from the comic books is white--it's a different universe. If it wasn't, all the stories would need to have been set in the 60's when the comic book stories happened. But they said somewhere that the movies are set in an alternate universe. Hence Tony Stark's father Howard looks and basically is the original Tony Stark of the comic books, who was a young man in the 50's and 60's and had a pencil-thin Walt Disney mustache. It's also why it's OK for Valkyrie, originally a white woman of Nordic ethnicity (obviously, since she's based on the actual Valkyrie of Norse mythology) to be a black woman.

    But they were smart enough not to use that from the beginning to justify race-swapping and gender-swapping all the heroes. That would have been bizarre and uncalled-for. It also would have killed any moneymaking potential they had. If they weren't going to use the actual characters, at least for the most part, then what would have been the point? Why even use the names and the characters, if you aren't trying to appeal to the fans of the comic books? That didn't start to happen wholesale until Disney took over. You know, after they destroyed Star Wars the same way.
     
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  18. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Comic book Nick Fury is currently black - he's the son of white Nick Fury (so he's technically Nick Fury Jr.).

    I think Deadpool comments on it at one point. "What, Nick Fury's black now?"
     
  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    So, just like Tony Stark. Weird that he's missing the eye. Is it a genetic thing? o_O

    It makes sense though, because Shield was around at the time of Howard Stark, and today's Fury doesn't look 80 years old.

    Lol, it reminds me of a quote that I can't remember in original wording, but something like "Every time I run into a woman I know it always turns out to be her daughter."
     
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  20. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    That's because he's taken an anti-aging formula, kinda like Captain America.

    Do I sound like a geek?
     
  21. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    is this true in the films, though? In Captain Marvel we see Fury's ID card with a 1950 birthdate on it, and he appears to age accordingly.
     
  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The best movie Nick Fury was and will always remain Hasselhoff.
    [​IMG]
     
  23. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    Yeah, although it does bug me whenever this topic comes up in the gaming sphere (that's usually where I hear the term woke) because it eventually becomes a flame war.
    I thought I'd post a topic here to see if I could discuss it in a civil manner.
    It's a problem because I know the bulk of the plot is going to be a boring civil rights movement, rather than an actual superman film. It doesn't matter if they put a 'superhero' spin on it, I'm 90% certain that's what it's going to be. (Why else would they have it take place during that time in US history?) The only reason I say 90% is cause I'm not sure, but that's what I'm guessing based on what little we know of the film. (The fact that they're being so hush hush about it is also concerning, we should have seen some trailers by now)
    That and again, there's a few black superheroes they could have used that could have existed around that time period. I don't know if DC has many though.
    It would be harmless if the only thing that changed was the skin color, but I got this sinking feeling that at least PART of the plot is gonna be civil rights. I don't see why they have to use superman specifically instead of coming up with a cool original superhero.

    The thing that they make clear with Red Son and Batman Ninja is that it's very clearly an alternate timeline. We know so little about the Black Superman film (other than the 'original' superman died at some point) that we can only make assumptions. Again, I find it very fishy they haven't shown trailers yet.

    Also Black Peter parker was just an example lol that's why Miles Moralis (Black Spiderman who is NOT peter parker) is a 'good' example of representation. Black Superman does exist though.
     
  24. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I know where @naruzeldamaster is coming from, but it’s typical in this day and age. It’s about being seen to do the ‘right‘ thing, and making traditionally white characters black, in an attempt to demonstrate equality, is just one example of this, and to hell with traditions. If the character is fictitious they’re open to interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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  25. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    Black superman exists, though, in another universe. His name is Val-Zod. And he becomes superman after Kal-El dies (i think) in that universe.

    I dont see a problem with putting him in the past.
    We've had 3 superhero movies (that i know of) that took place in the past. They didnt have to take place then because there are tons of comics of alternate universe materials, but WW, Cap America, and Carol Danvers (what the crud is her superhero name...), were back in time. WW and Cap America were during the wars.
    Also, Red Son had a eugenics/nazi theme going.

    I just dont see why having superhero movies about WW2 and nazi and the persecution/rescue of those effected by the war is ok but having a movie centered around black empowerment and civil rights is wrong:confused:
     

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