Do the races of your characters really matter that much?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Youniquee, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Youniquee

    Youniquee (◡‿◡✿) Contributor

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    Nah, you didn't. It was quite an eye opener and I'm happy you shared it with us :D But I am scared that's how other black people may view me as.

    And it is to me...and I'm black. Maybe that will change when I'm older, but for now, my skin is a mere physical attribute. My culture is what affects how I relate to the world, not my skin colour.

    Thank you for the suggestions and viewpoints. These are all really interesting :)
     
  2. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Even though I know I should write what I want, I'm often careful, to a super degree, because down here, race is a very, very touchy subject. Sometimes, I'm worried that I'll get people angry by having two black protags, even though, to me, it feels natural for the two to be black. Most, if not all of my protags are women, and two or three of them are not white.

    It's just what's natural for me, and I guess that's the thing to remember.
     
  3. marktx

    marktx New Member

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    The kicker is that it might not mean fewer readers at all. If you're struggling to find books about black characters that would feel out of place in a BET music video, my strong hunch is that you are not alone. I believe in the comedy realm, Chris Rock's 1996 breakout concert "Bring the Pain" was focused on exactly the same frustration, and Aaron McGruder built a comic-strip empire playing on that frustration as well.

    There might be a bigger audience than you think.
     
  4. Yoshiko

    Yoshiko Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think race matters at all unless it's actually relative to the plot.

    I did manage to write a 180k+ story without once mentioning the love interest's skin tone or background. Would the reader whitewash him? Probably. In my head he's Filipino. There is a hint 80% of the way through that he isn't native to the (European) country that the story is set in, but that's about it. I didn't notice until I re-read it. However, I usually do mention a character's skin tone no matter their colour. I do it in a way that is probably similar to how some writers point out each character's eye/hair colour.
     
  5. Youniquee

    Youniquee (◡‿◡✿) Contributor

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    It's so easy to avoid race using third person in my opinion...
    but first person, I'm not so sure...So the character should just ignore the skin colour difference?
    Any advice on this?
     
  6. Luna13

    Luna13 Active Member

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    I don't think race matters at all, unless you're story is set in a place where most people have the same-ish skin/hair color, such as Asia or Africa. I am white, and I have had several Asian characters. It doesn't matter. It doesn't change the character's personality. I mean, an eccentric teenage girl with a passion for volleyball is an eccentric teenage girl with a passion for volleyball no matter her skin color, right?
     
  7. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    True, but if you were writing a historical setting, then race might matter.

    I mean, if I were writing from the perspective of a Chinese migrate worker in the 1800s American Wild West, his race will matter, because I doubt they were treated kindly at all back then. See what I mean? If it's historical fiction, then you'll have to consider the prejudices of the time period.
     
  8. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    IMO, only mention race if it causes a difference in how a character see's the world or a culture difference with the family. For instance:

    A character could say "Yeah, I agree with you, but My family is from china, so my parents won't see it the same as we who are born in this country..."

    In that one bit of dialouge it is revealed that there is a culture difference and it only appears because it poses a role in the plot :p
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Maybe that's why I'm so confused by this discussion. To me, the skin color and other appearance aspects of race don't matter, but race/ethnicity so very frequently goes along with cultural traditions and the way that one is treated by society in general, and is so often the target of prejudices and stereotypes, that I can't understand those saying that it isn't a relevant aspect of the character.

    To look at a different characteristic-that-in-itself-doesn't-determine-character, would a British writer say, for example, that a character's accent and manner of speech don't matter even a tiny, tiny little bit? Of course it doesn't determine whether they're good or bad, smart or stupid, anything like that, but do you ignore it and ignore people's reaction to it? If the Queen spoke with a Northern accent, would you not have even a little bit of a reaction?
     
  10. marktx

    marktx New Member

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    That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's not the physical aspects that make it relevant at all--it's the fact that in different societies (and I use the U.S. only because it's what I know best) behave differently towards different groups of people, and this behavior affects the groups on the receiving end of the behavior.

    To be fair, the fact that racism exists does not equal predestination--people have choices and options for overcoming these societal realities--and several of the African American commenters in this thread have been making exactly that point. Indeed, taking the attitude that these pressures are insurmountable is insulting to those who have surmounted them.

    However, I am willing to bet donuts-to-dollars that some of the African American commenters who have surmounted these pressures know other people who have not. And the fact that the pressures need to be surmounted and/or dealt with in the first place is in itself significant from a character-development perspective. White people in this country don't suffer from such things as "Oreo Syndrome." We don't worry about doing things that may be viewed by others as "stereotypical." We don't get frustrated or worry about the ways in which other white people might be portrayed in books or movies. We don't because we don't have to. But these are all things that have been mentioned in this thread, which is why I believe that a character's race does have significance, even if we must also understand that no character is determined by it, just as no human is determined by it.
     
  11. afrodite7

    afrodite7 New Member

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    -And now for the perspective of a black chick livin' in da hood or more appropriately an 'african american female urban youth'.

    ...Waiting for people to mentally judge....

    ...preparing rant...

    Okay,engaging conversation.

    Now,as a black ,non-oreo ,american youth who grew up around not so well to do black people as well as had interacted with people of other ethnic and racial backgrounds,I make no delusions of my place in society.This wonderland where people of different ethnic groups don't bat an eye does not exist where I live,in philadelphia,PA . (Pennsylvania is a klan state meaning there are white people here in noticeable numbers who don't like my kind if you can spot them).

    Now,economic level and ethnicity together as well as location and history create culture.Say for example,an indian woman who lives in a poor village in india and an asian american indian (indians are asians too for those who don't know...you'd be surprised) who is of high income, has parents born in america and was raised in america, (most likely around mostly white people, wasps really) would have a different lifestyle and belief system than her native counterpart.

    When placed around her own people from india ,there will be discomfort and tension as would there be discomfort and tension when she tries to conform to white america's standards and either knows in her heart she never will or embrace it.She may be resent her own people or resent her current peers (not guarenteed either of them).

    At the same time,economics are different across race in this country.We know a lot of blacks and latinos the largest ration of the ones living in poverty (if you trust the numbers).We know most whites have more money than us do to unfair and unknown racial practices in the past ,present and future.

    Now,a sizeable amount of the world looks down on my people ,black americans.But how many of you know the legacy of slavery and the jim crow era of racism ,of white people destroying our towns and cities in the centuries before becaus they couldn't accept us on equal terms? I bet none of the bigots know that they have centuries worth of a head start on us.They just think we're stupid and lazy.Not depressed,opressed and ignorant becaus thats what society wants us to be.So when non-black and black people meet me ,it strikes them as a surpise .

    -I don't watch BET and take it seriously or listen to nothing but rap and r&b,I don't dress tacky and I don't wear bad weaves,nor do I act unecesarily loud and rude in public.I don't have an attitude,I'm not an 'angry black person' (most of the time,I have my momments).Not all black people are like those stereotypes ,but a lot are,its sad but true.I've been told 'I'm smart like them white people' by my own race(which offends me in so many ways) and I can't stand street novels (they feed into the ignorant stereotypes,giving people a justification for looking down on us).Despite the fact some of my favorite artists now are MUSE ,A.F.I (post punk,not a fan of their old stuff),Evanescence,Dido,Linkin Park,Innerpartysystem,Bush,Disturbed and System of a down and I actively watch anime,I am very aware of my culture,my race,my class,my sex,my gender and my ethnicity.I still relate to 'the black experience' and I percieve the world as a black person.I have to hide my tastes around my own people and sometimes around whites becaus they'll think I'm 'One of them'.I'm not.

    As a black person,I have to wonder if everytime a non-black person speaks to me,is there a double meaning to it because I'm black.A character who is in my situation in a novel would feel the same.Everyone feels uneasy when they're the minority.A latino ,new to america guy would be a little self concious if he's the only latino guy in a sea of people who don't look like him probably don't like him.Maybe his english is bad and he can't communicate with everyone else,or even if that's not the case,the cultural norms are different ,so he wouldn't know what to do.A character in that situation should act the same way.

    Now,that being said,all people are people and some things like thoughts are universal,only slightly changed becaus of ethnicity,age ,race ,culture,location.When using characters of different ethnicity,take them seriously,don't do it for extra flavor or brownie points.Make them human,thoughts and feelings.For example, the main characters of my novel are a half japanese,half korean american cross-dressing ,ex-gang leader and her (naturally)androgynous gender ambiguous son, his geeky black girlfriend,who can talk to spirits,her half black ,half white,bisexual friend who was raised 'black' and happens to be a cyborg, a white,female police officer who dated a vampire ,and a white guy who's a mind reader who's best friend is black .

    What do they have in common?

    They live in a post-cyberpunk world where magic is real and are all involved in a conspiracy that has to do with space travel,transdimensional vampires,elemental witches ,aliens and the balance of the universe.

    It can work too.Just treat your characters as people first ,everything else last.Now,if your characters are a different ethnicity,I reccomend research (had to go brush up on ancient and modern japanese ,culture ,japnese mythology and talk to some japanese people ,but its completely necesary).It depends on how important it is to the plot really.I live in a diverse city,the same city as my novel,so people like this being best friends is implausable,but being aquainted with one another ,at least in passing,is possible.But note how changes will affect politics too,that's important.When Magick is abound,your race becomes a bit less relevant.If aliens showed up,people are more worried about the green guy and not the black guy.
     
  12. marktx

    marktx New Member

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    {Deleted as a duplicate}
     
  13. marktx

    marktx New Member

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    afrodite7--

    Thank you!

    This Texas white boy agrees with everything you've just said.

    If we pretend there is no significance, we are simply not telling the truth. Having said that, there has to be real experience and awareness behind what we're writing, or we're going to have a train wreck on our hands.
     
  14. Fullmetal Xeno

    Fullmetal Xeno Protector of Literature Contributor

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    In fantasy, yeah. But as of color race? It depends on the setting or how you want to place the character.
     
  15. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    Race should only matter if it will affect the plot. If it poses a complication, or the culture generates specific behavior in the character then it might be relevnt, but treat each person as an individual. I am black and if I want to write a realistic fiction from the POV ofa black man, I would take into account the attributes of black families that birth complications or behaviors [i.e. many balck families go to church, many black families do not exceed lower-midle class, in most black families women have a significant role, in modern times there is an issue of black men not sticking around to marry the mother of his kids]. All of those things I would consider because they would help shape the characer and his background.

    As one who really dislikes realistic fiction in most cases woul more likely write a character who could be black or white. Mine have been white so far because its what I'm used to, but a black character could just as easily fill their shoes. Why? because I CREATE THE HISTORY, CULTURE, RELIGION, AND BEHAVIOR OF THE CHARACTERS. In my world, racism may never have been a problem, therefore it is perfectly practical for my character to have "dark skin" but it wouldn't make a difference at all.

    Society may be used to the typical white MC and it's fine, other races are a minority overall. In some places reading about a black MC may upset people, so what. write the story as it comes to you. I wrote a story about a black boy in Alabama who was in love with his white best friend. It showed how people were canging as Older people didn't like the idea much, but younger people were fine with it. He was smart, and talented, and he lived alone because his parents were killed and his foster parents were drunk and violent. That story could belong to anyone, but it is his. Since I made a distinction that he's black, conflict arises because of it, as a white man-- a meber of some Cult-- attacked him for being with a white girl.... and seems to be hunting interracial couples.

    If there is no point, then Race should not be mentioned with the exception of observation by the characters themselves.
     
  16. Chronicle535

    Chronicle535 New Member

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    In my mind I will always write about the characters I want to without fear of what people say, simply because I know the critisism will come whether its bad or good critisism, so just let take the good critisism and just brush the bad critisism aside
     
  17. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Alive in the Superunknown

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    Culture is part of character. There is a correlation between race and culture. I will mention race if it's important to the storyline. I will keep in mind cultural influence (or its rejection, as evinced by Creos's refusal to eat chicken in public mentioned above) when building a character, and I will let the character tell me how important their racial identity is to him or her.

    I avoid gratuitous mention of race. If it matters, it gets mentioned. Otherwise, it might receive grazing mention in a descriptive passage ("her skin was red from sunburn"). My WiP is set in Iran, in a multiracial milieu, but mentions of race are mostly tangential (by names rather than skin color, for instance), and almost always left to reader inference.

    Not to be too picky, but race is not the same as species. There is a scientific conception of race, as shown by Mayr. Different races of a species can mate productively. Different spcies cannot interbreed.

    To explain is not to excuse.
     
  18. rick_danger

    rick_danger Member

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    put in as many race>s as you want ist should not matter, we live ina multi ethnic society.
     
  19. Complex

    Complex New Member

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    In fantasy, race is important, not so much as a matter of color, but of creed and language. Modern terms for race are basically down to skin color, but nationality used to be roughly equivalent to race. A foreign individual, of any color, was not the same race. Race is a classification system as a whole.

    An example is Tolkien, orcs, goblins, hobbits, elves... Very different 'races' physically, should be 'species', but the term sticks thanks to fantasy backing it. Another example is Elder Scrolls, variation in human races are cosmetic, and barely complexion differences, but they are still different races. A real world example would be nationality, backed by genetic type, as a matter of race. Certain racial characteristics are stand out amongst others, like the 'Roman nose', which is a physical trait that is a matter of appearance rather then complexion. If you look at Asian nationalities the differences are also fairly obvious, Korean versus Japanese. Mixing of genes are a different matter unique to modern society and the value systems, but if you refer back even a century ago, each nationality was basically a descriptor likened to race. Like White is Caucasian from the Caucuses, most 'White' people are not even loosely related to the Caucuses, yet a broad skin color term sticks for social matters rather then other genetic differences.

    If I'm specific about a certain individual I do not need to use 'color' so much as physical makeup of the face, high cheekbones, nose, eyes, a strong chin with a clef. Certain characteristics of true 'race', not color may help in sticking a character for a play or movie, novels not so much, but sometimes a very specific appearance is memorable. If you are going to do it, don't be 'black or white', work it into the physical appearance of the character if you must do it at all.
     
  20. P R Crawford

    P R Crawford New Member

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    @afrodite7 - thank you for summing that up very nicely. Case closed (AFAIC). :)

    Absolutely right. It boils down to the difference between hacks and serious writers. Hacks pile on details in order to distinguish one piece of their cardboard creation from another piece. A serious writer recognizes that every detail affects the whole.

    Race/ethnicity/culture absolutely do matter to the serious writer; they are not just randomly chosen "character attributes", but have roots in the underlying theme of the story and the writer's own intention.
     
  21. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Alive in the Superunknown

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    I think that one mark of a great writer is that he has traits in mind that are only insinuated in the book, and never made explicit; in that way, he allows the reader to build the character. There's nothing more annoying to me, as a fiction reader, than a author who tells me every last thing without giving my imagination any rein. It's handling character in the same manner as Hemingway handles the abortion in "Hills Like White Elephants."
     
  22. FirstTimeNovelist91

    FirstTimeNovelist91 New Member

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    The race of my characters matters to a certain extend. However, it is more important for there to have diversity.

    I do notice how underrepresented minorities are in books. Hence why my main character is black. (I'm black too, but...that's beside the points). I also have many Greek characters, Asian, Native American...I don't discriminate.
     
  23. Complex

    Complex New Member

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    I don't think I would call a lack of 'minorities' discrimination, but then again the subject matter could be very much different. Before 20th century, minorities didn't fit into society like they do now, America was an exception. I'm fairly sure the majority of individuals in China are Chinese and the majority in Mexico are Mexican, America is a melting pot for reasons which are obvious, most other nations were not like this for reasons of travel, language and culture. Though to point out something which you note (ethnicity), black is not so much a race as a skin color description, now if I ask you the differences between a Nigerian and someone from KwaZulu-Natal? Are they the same 'race'?

    Specifically, differences in Bantu people, again a very general and broad term, but one could argue that even at this stage the differences could be based in race, and that is also valid. Like Khoisan, is an ethnic group, which is also a 'race'. So when someone says 'black' as race, its really no better then saying what color car a bank robber drove off in. Sure, next time someone describes a bubblegum pink car we might be different, but how many 'red cars' are there? How many 'silver cars'. Its like saying someone is 'White', but I'm sure that other traits come to mind, Greek, Italian, French, British, German, Russian... call them 'White', but that's just a really broad term which describes a likely ancestral region and that's about it.
     
  24. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

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    Well, technically speaking, you are not exactly correct - as nice and simplistic as that perspective may be. There are a number of races. Race is a concept designed and created by human beings. It was originally designed merely as a convenient identifier, however; human beings, being the insecure creatures that we are, started using those identifiers as a means of delineating superiority - as in, "I'm better than you are! Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh, nyeh, nye."

    As far as the ability, or lack thereof, for reproduction, I believe you are referencing the issue of species (yet another human-created identifier). Since specii are uniquely different genetically and biologically, creatures of two different species cannot reproduce. Now, in all fairness, some of those ignorant early Euro-American homo-sapiens believed American Indians were actually a different species from human. Likewise, many Anglo-Europeans readily adopted the concept that Africans were a subspecies of human and, therefore, were not fully human. This made the buying of African tribes from their conquering enemies so much easier for the young American nation. The mindset being, "They are not really humans, so it is okay to own them. And they are at least as smart as a dog." (A quote from a letter home to England from a family member settling in America!)

    And now, back to your regularly scheduled post.

    I frequently will describe a character down to his or her race ... assuming that is relevant to the character or the story. More often than not, I do not insinuate a character's race or ethnicity into the story because it simply does not matter ... much like real life.

    This goes a long way toward discrediting a lot of what you had to say, despite the fact that much of what you said was quite valid. HOWEVER, if you've got a 'black chip' on your shoulder, you are, as you already noted, expecting the worst from others. This can be a problem. In truth, this is not actually unique to African-Americans. It is, rather, unique to those who have insecurities, either internal or thrust upon them. In your case, it would seem to be externally motivated, put upon you by base and unfair treatment toward earlier generations by other earlier generations of equally insecure people which has, through subsequent ages been taught in one way or another by all concerned.

    Actually, the point I am trying to make by this diatribe is that, although this is your mindset, it does not accurately reflect the feelings and attitudes of all AAs, nor does it accurately reflect the mindset and mentality of all Anglo/Euro Caucasians.

    See? Cubbyholing entire races of people into little boxes just doesn't work.
     
  25. Birmingham

    Birmingham Active Member

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    I think that it's okay to throw in a different race every now and then. When I wrote a story that deals with American politics, I made the head of the CIA a black guy, just for the hell of it. Nobody treated him any differently because he was black. He was just a human who happens to be black. If you watched "Close To Home" you may have noticed that the friend of the main character happens to be black. She wasn't written in as a stereotypical black, just a female human who happens to have that skin color.

    In Jurassic Park, Sam Jackson's character was black (duh!) even though in the book he was white. It just didn't matter.

    My problem is with those who try to make people deliberately black or Asian based on some stereotype. The Asian characters always know Kong Fu, the Native American characters always have some mystical thing about them. My problem is NOT with those who just write about humans who all happen to be white, or humans who happen to be mostly white but include a black human or an Asian human who is just a regular human being.

    My problem IS with those who write about races and nationalities with specific biases and BS stories, as if all Asians are the same, all French people don't know who Spiderman is, and Lithuwanians all eat horse meat (the last example was made up by Jonathan Franzen, who does not see anything wrong with him making this up because he wrote that lie in a fictional novel).

    Bottom line: Write anyone in any race you want, add a different race just for the hell of it every now and then, and refrain from stupid stereotypes about intelligent humans who just happen to have different eyes, skin, or accent than you
     

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