Do you think it is possible to create a fictional world totally free of homophobia?

make it a world where the gay media and GLAAD persecutes anyone deriding gays--oh wait, we live in that world.

um, how about making the story take place in a godless communist country. i mean, gays are only persecuted due to religion, right?

sorry, i love me some satire

 

There is no "gay media", unless you count productions by LOGO. Media exists where gay people work, yes, but it's just called media because gay people work everywhere where people and work are to found.

This would not be a world that fits the parameters set forth in the OP. This world is one in which homophobia is still rife because otherwise GLAAD would not exist to call out homophobes for their asshole behavior. Important to note, pointing out derision in no way takes away a homophobe's right to continue homophobing (it just points out the dickishness of said behavior) until and unless the homophobe's behavior impedes the ability of other citizens to fully enjoy their rights as promised under their governmental charter. But this is the case with any and all rights for any and all people living in a free society. The homophobe gets to be a dickhole, GLAAD gets to point it out, yay team freedom.

There is no such thing as a "godless communist" state. There have been things that have been called such, but no true expression of this dynamic has ever actually existed in modern times outside of propagandist mythology.

At a cultural scale, yeah, pretty much. Don't confuse this with the erroneous idea that all religious people are homophobes. Far, far from it.

So, in short, we seem to have different takes on the application of the word satire. This doesn't feel like satire at all. Since it in no way engages the point of the conversation, it has the distinct, very solo, feeling of self gratifying masturbation.

 

@Wreybies

 

This has quite a few replies already, but I'm going to toss in my two cents anyway.

Look at the Dragon Age universe (If you've played the games, that is). It's a medeival world free from homophobia. How? Everybody hates mages so strongly that there's no room for anything else. . Granted, as shown in Inquisition (the most recent game), some people still view being gay as undesireable, but that was more from a "carrying on the legacy" stand point than any moral or religious view.

 

I understand you don't mean it like that, but the way I painstakingly look at a possibility I would have overlooked were it not for you comment; a world free of homophobia is a world without gays and every memory of them.

Of course what you mean has nothing to do with that; you were arguing there is a fictional world where homophobia is replaced with a different kind of discrimination against minorities (mages who might be gay but that's not what bothers people then) so that there is no time for the xenophobia surrounding a LGBT comm.

 

I get the comment, there are some people who are prone to prejudice. They need something/someone to blame their own inadequacies on; I don't think what that thing is, is particularly important.

 

... but I do think how much time they have on their hands is important. And even more importantly, how much time they have had, historically speaking. Just a thought as I was mulling over these last intriguing comments. Perhaps in a world where there is less of a history of leisure time, there might be less of a historical precident for prejudice against that-which-doesn't-actually-hurt-you and more of a focus on what actually can.

Now, before anyone goes off on a wild harrumphing tangent as to modern societies that live in life-or-death scenarios on a daily basis (there are many) and where homophobia is very much present, remember that I said history. We don't live in "Roman times" today, obviously, but that block of history did help shape Western Society and our views today though the dynamic of that period of time is long ago and far away. Secularism is very much on the rise, but it doesn't negate, instantly, all that we drag with us from a long period of religious dominance. Our views can change, but we don't get to just delete past paradigms. We are the end result of a long history of not having to hunt and gather. We have, for hundreds and hundreds of years, been able to rely on the aid of a greater society, sufficiently greater that we don't necessarily know the direct source of the aid that gives us comfort. It just comes when we invoke it as part of the cultural paradigm. We have, for hundreds and hundreds of years, enjoyed the leisure of giving time and effort over to things that may not answer to reason.

But what if we had none of that? What if we wind the clock back a goodly bit and find the first (rolling backward from the "now") band of 20 - 25-ish Europeans eking an existence from the plains of what would one day in the far future be called Germany. My name is Cragson in this troupe. I've never picked a wife nor shown any interest in going to get one (I would have to go find one because I'm related to everyone in the troupe somehow, so ewww!). We have no word for guys who like guys, but the troupe knows what's up. Vocabulary notwithstanding, they aren't stupid. We are perfectly modern humans in the biological sense (AMS); we just have a rather short history of cultural accumulation. I'm good with a throwing spear, better with a stabbing spear, and I show no fear of the game I bring to the fire for supper. I don't "act gay" because there is no historical evolution of that concept as we think of it in our modern world, many millennia in the future. It doesn't exist in this long ago paradigm. I do what every man is expected to do in the troupe, everything save bone a woman. In fact, since I've no tykes of my own, I sometimes give one of the gals a break by minding her kids while she goes off and has some alone time away from her husband Truglo, because seriously, if you knew Truglo you would completely understand why some alone time might be nice. None of us is exactly refined, but Truglo... what a dick.

Is there time for this troupe to care that I'm gay? Is there time for the members to create a narrative about why gay is bad?

 

I think you've given the reason here. Your children would likely be useful to the continued survival of the troupe.

 

.... I don't follow your meaning. I've no tykes of my own....

 

I think he means that, given your hunting skills, the troupe might be a bit miffed at you for not having tykes to pass those skills on to.

 

Exactly. You have no children, but given the (presumably) inheritable [propensity and physical requirements to learn] skills you have, the troupe would probably want you to have children.

 

Ok, I hear this, but it's 40,000 years ago. The idea that I should have kids because I'm such a stud as regards bringing down elk, so I need to pass my genes along for more studly elk-bringer-downers feels like a very modern thought process.

ETA: And let's say my skills aren't really any better or worse than any other dude in the troupe. Life is tough 40,000 years ago and proficiency is a pass or fail kind of thing. I pull my weight like all the guys, but so do they.

 

I don't think so. We have evolved to see patterns; realising that children display similar attributes to their parents is something we would pick up incredibly quickly. As a social animal, identifying what attributes are useful to the troupe would also happen very quickly.

 

So in this hypothetical situation, the women are popping out kids nonstop, without your contribution, right? And everyone is related anyway, so your germline is being passed on regardless.

 

Possibly. There's also no reason why some skilled adult can't pass on his skills to kids who aren't related to him (or to nephews, cousins, etc.).

 

This is what I see too. I have no kids, and I bring in the elk. I have time to teach Truglo's kids how to bring in the elk (because seriously, I cannot emphasize enough just what a dick Truglo is), and what's more, I can teach other kids, not just his. I am one of the first archetypal humans in a group with more surplus time than others, or with the only surplus time ever known to this point. Am I more useful in the eyes of the troupe taking care of my kids and my seriously disappointed wife, or as the Elk Hunt Master?

Again, just proposing ways in which the long-ago disappeared OP's question can come to fruition. It's too easy for me to create any number of scenarios where, divested of modern thought and baggage, gays are a surfeit of aid to a growing society and not the subject of intense negative narrative (in the political sense).

 

I've not read the previous conversation, but I like you think you can. However, I would carefully study the anthropological theories on discrimination of any kind. Ayn Rand thought it was the lowest, most base form of Collectivism, which to be honest makes some sense.

 

I agree. Plus, I'd guess that the group can support only so many children at a time, and that everyone else's priority would be their own children--evolution protects its own genes. (How do the men know, in a free-breeding society, who carries their genes, one might ask? Because their sisters' children carry their genes.) You, by helping to protect and teach and feed and care for others' children, should be seen as a bonus, not a negative.

 

But then if you take a gay household these days (certainly those I know) they tend to be net contributors. Two working, tax-paying adults, no children. A lot of disposable income. Generally pretty good at hunting Elk. Competition removed from straight guys.

But then (certainly in the UK) I never really experienced gays being subject to any negative narrative at all (outside of a very few God-botherers). But then I did live in London and for a while in Brighton, both of which are probably more liberal than most places.

 

Nor have I. They are even getting very sympathetic representations on TV (I'm thinking of Cucumber specifically). Which is why I'm always surprised to find out it's apparently much more of an issue in the US.

 

Well, I'm totally open to the idea of there being a European Bison Hunt Master in the troupe as well. Two valleys over there is the dreamiest red-headed fellah' who also has no wife... He can stay if he's of a mind to. LOL Our troupe will be rollin' in the elk and bison steaks. When the bachelors from other valleys go on walkabout to find wives, they'll stay here instead of going back to their valleys. Thousands of years from now, we are the seed that started Berlin. (which, prior to WWII was the San Fransisco of Germany)

 

I do hate those Channel 4- so painfully PC it goes full circle back to offensive- dramas to be honest, but I didn't watch this one.

Are you in the process of setting up a gay commune?

 

No. Just giving voice to the scene as it played out in my head, committing to the image, so to speak.

 

The discrimination or the anthropological theories attempting to explain such? I won't be reading her "epistemology" (pfft!) during this life, so... ?

 

The 'it' in that sentence is the discrimination. Sorry, I should have made that clear. It feels weird me referencing Ayn Rand in a positive way - but that's basically it. That it makes people in groups tribalize to prove their worth to the collective, instead of treating the 'outsider' as a rational person with whom a friendship could be beneficial.