Well, except you really need to explain why you are making the changes. That is far more important than the corrections themselves.
Well yeah, they might not care if you return it with dents, but you've at least got to let them know about the sand-dunes just south of where you live. Not letting your friends know about an awesome hang is grounds for termination.
i disagree about re-writing it to how you'd do it. I think i was guilty of doing that, and maybe i still am in parts but am trying to get away from that, it is not my eyes/mind that created this story so putting my words would just get in the way of theirs. that said i'm still working on it. i try to help with the flow or clarity of the story now but like writing, critiquing is a learning process of which i'm willing to try. i still suck at it, but i'm getting better. the idea is your voice may not be theirs, so why try to push it into their story? Cos
I don't think that re-writing a sentence that clearly doesn't work, or detracts from a story (or paragraph or point), is a bad thing. It's not necessarily saying to the author that you can "do it better" or something like that. For example, I know that I'm definitely guilty of re-writing sentences so that they try and convey the point I'm trying to make...usually what I'm trying to do is illustrate the point, but then find that I don't have the right way of interpreting the author's style. As a result I'll try restructuring the sentence so that the point still gets across, but it usually comes out in my writing style as opposed to the author's style. I think that illustrating how a sentence would work better if written another way is a good thing to do, but only if the author can keep an open mind to what is being illustrated. If the author looks at the sentence and takes it literally, then they are missing the point of the example. It's more about the concept behind the example, than saying that you as the person giving the crit can write the story better than the author.
I often rewrite sentences to point out awkward structure. In that case the words don't matter. It's meant as a guide to writing a more efficient or grammatically correct sentence. Sometimes I'll struggle with a line in my own writing for a couple of minutes, then just shrug and move on, leaving it awkward. Sometimes I'll even post, knowing a sentence is awkward, just to see how someone will rewrite it. If they only tell me, "that sentence is awkward" it doesn't help so much. When someone does rewrite a line, it instantly clicks. I almost want to slap myself because it should have been obvious. Examples work better than anything. Sometimes when I rephrase, it's to point out an awkward choice of words. Then I'll throw different words out there to help the brainstorming. If I just say "those words are awkward" (which I sometimes do) then I feel like I've failed somehow, because I know that's not likely to be very helpful. It's up to the writer to decide whether my words are appropriate or not. My job as a reviewer is to help the reviewee start thinking in a new direction, or learn about proper grammar. Grammar is often not debateable and very important to know. That's just what I like to focus on, for now. Sometimes people copy my words verbatim. Other times they rewrite it themselves to sound better. I'm happier with the latter because it shows creativity, and that they are making an effort to improve. Again, it's up to them -- not my concern. If you're just worried about saying "my writing is better than yours", well... I post in the review room, not just knowing, but expecting that someone out there can express my ideas more effectively than I do. I want to learn everything I can from those people. If that wasn't the case, I'd have no reason to post! Of course, it's often subjective as to whether or not the reviewer's way is really better. That's where thinking comes in. On the general topic... I write a lot of reviews, and when posting new piece I usually get all the feedback I could want in a matter of hours. My critiques also tend to be somewhat harsh, so when people review my stuff they know they can take the gloves off, which is just how I like it. I think the general principle of recieving what you give is very evident on this site. I don't think I'd actually want everyone to reciprocate directly to me. My posts don't need 30 reviews. But it's always nice to see others helping others, and I think that giving a lot of thorough reviews is a good way to get other people doing the same. Still, there are deadbeats who will always do the bare minimum in every way. . . I learn who they are and avoid them. They don't usually stick around long. I don't mind newbies who don't have a lot to say, though. I only expect that people make some effort, and I'm more than happy to help however I can. Oh, and of course I get more out of writing reviews than receiving them. I think part of the problem is that it just sounds like a lot of stupid preaching to the new folks. It's hard to appreciate the finer points of the learning process until you've actually experienced them. To that end I'd actually like to see the initial reviewing requirements increased. I'm thinking 5 reviews before you can post. Then again, you don't want to discourage new members. It's a complicated issue. . . /End Rant
Complicated is and understatement, I think. But I really don't think it's an issue of the number of required reviews. As previously stated, there will always be those who want to get more than they give. Rules won't change them, much as society would like them to. It's a give an take scenario. Some people join the forum just for the review room, they use it once or twice then disappear. Then there are others who joined for some other reason, who never post work in the review room, but still do reviews. Between the two I think it balances out. And if those in the first bunch do end up sticking around chances are their reviews will improve. The review room also goes through seasons or phases, if you know what I mean. It's just kind of luck of the draw if you happen to post your work while there are a lot of reviewers or a lot of reviewees hanging around. I love reviewing, but I kind of do it in random fits. For a few weeks I'll review a lot, then I won't even go into the review room for a month. I like to think my reviews are somewhat helpful or useful, and the more of them I do, the longer they are becoming. Whether that makes them better or not I can't really say. Not sure if I managed to stay on topic very well, but oh well. I think the review room works brilliantly considering what it is, and the only way to improve it probably wouldn't be legal. The mods do a great job of helping keep things fair and keeping new members on track. Then again, I've yet to put any work up in the review room, so I can't say I can empathize with the frustration when review received are found to be unhelpful to a writer.
I find trying to review other people's work is more intimidating than the thought of putting my own up. I feel like since I'm a beginner and an amateur, what business do I have trying to guide another person? Like on a chess forum I used to frequent, I hated it when people who had no idea what they were talking about would teach newbies bad habits. So while I'd like to improve by getting feedback from experienced writers, it's hard to muster the gall to act like a teacher correcting mistakes. As for going for shorter stories I'm guilty of that too... Since the process of critical reading (especially of someone's work who wants feedback) is draining and takes a lot out of me.
Vapor, the best way to start would probably be to just spend some time in the review room and read as many reviews as you can. Everyone has their own style, and different things they like to comment on. Once you've done that, you might be more comfortable just pointing out a few things which are obviously wrong (like grammar you know is wrong). Then tell the author what you liked about the piece. It's a lot easier to say what works. After you've spent some time doing that, you might start to feel more comfortable about expressing your opinion on how things might be improved. As Cogito is fond of saying, reviewing is an ongoing learning process in itself.
Vapor, not every recommendation need be about a "mistake." Sometimes you might just feel that an alternative phrasing might be clearer or more vivid. Take a chance! Offer an opinion. It isn't about being right, or telling a writer something is broken. It is an attempt to lend a hand, and to sharpen your eye for what works well and what can be improved upon. Every piece of writing can be improved. Think of it as an Easter Egg hunt, one that just might give the writer a fresh perspective.
Reviews Here is my rant on this subject. I am not a good reviewer. I have read a million published books. They have been through the process and are delivered mostly as a finished product. Even there and in daily newspapers I see errors. Seeing peoples raw stuff is mostly very frustrating to me. I cannot ignore spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors. They break the story flow completely. I wonder where the author got their education, how they learned parts of speech, spelling, sentence structure. It is as if the author sat down and did a mind dump, then didn't even bother to do a spell check before posting. I have spent two hours nit-picking my way through a 2000 word piece, correcting single capital letters, adding and removing commas in a hundred places, making things sentences when they should be. Ahhhh! Given the relatively primitive editing tools available online, it is hard work. Then, the authors, when they respond, do not like the review. They didn't want to know that they had a thousand errors, they wanted to know "Will it sell?" "Is it Meaningful?" "Are the vampires believable?" Well, kid, you make it so I can read it without stumbling every four words, and I maybe can tell you. Because of these small errors, I am unable to see the whole piece. I end up down in the trenches struggling with sharp letters and pointy commas. I wish there was some way to force proofreading and a spell and grammar check before posting. So when I review the rare piece that is error free, I tend to over-praise it, because I am so pleased. Anyway, I guess the reviews they get are worth what I am paid to do them. Hahahahha.
Yes, I always love it when someone prefaces their writing with something like: Oh, trust me, you don't REALLY want to know what I think. I think you should be considerate enough to wait and sober up enough to proofread and spellcheck it before expecting us to waste time telling you the things you should be able to fix by yourself. Now it's one thing to lets a few autodetectable spoelling errors through. Sometimes I make a few last minute tweaks at the last minute before posting, and guess wwhere the typos pop up. I;m more forgiving of the spelling errors that are not spellcheckable, like typing were instead of where. But if the piece is laden with misspellings that ANY spellchecker should pick up, I really don't feel much like wasting more effort than they put into the entire piece. If you're going to put up something for review, have the pride, and the consideration and respect for reviewers, to make it presentable. If nothing else, it's a matter of courtesy.
I seen in non-fiction that the moderators tell to critique the writing, not the topic, does anyone else think this should be everywhere else also? I'm just trying to figure out the boundaries of both sides. so my question is this... When critiquing, is the content more important, or is it the way it is written, since this is a writing site, where as writers, we are trying to improve that faction, I am confused on which to choose.
The reason is to keep the focus on the writing critique. For some reason, the Nonfiction and Essays draw in the people who would rather debate the topic than critique the writing, often necessitating the reminder. Therefore, the moderators are stricter about enforcing it in the Nonfiction and Essay forums, to keep the responses on topic. In all cases, the author gets to decide the content of the writing. Telling the author how the story "should" go is not critique either. It's vanity on the part of the reviewer. If it is excessive, someone (usually a moderator) will step up and point that out. Your task as a reviewer is not to tell the author what to say. Your task is to help the author with how to say it more effectively.
Ah, it's becoming clearer now. that last line says it all. Thanks again for the speedy reply. Every site has its on set of rules, sometimes i tend to trip on them while running aimlessly around. CoS
Hmm this is quite an interesting thread, and it is sad to say that many tend to spend most of their posts in non-constructive (is that the word?) reviews and comments to get points, enough to post threads. Really sad. The thing that I've noticed as well, which is sadly enough, is that even reviewers don't tend to be consistent, or sometimes just critique in an insufficient fashion that one ends up thinking, is he/she for real? As mentioned earlier in this thread, reviewing is a great skill to work on and is vital to ones writing. If you don't see any reason to review a story then don't do for the sake of doing it, I think it's important to be interested in it for starters. Doing it reluctantly will neither be fair nor benifitial to the writer. And even if you do review ones work, O' poster of this thread, put in mind that once you post your review next time, don't expect too much in return... Just my thoughts...
Kas, I don't mean to single you out here but I've been posting about this subject on other forums and I want to touch on it quickly here. I've got to disagree with the thought that grammar is often non-debatable. However, it depends on certain things. If you were meaning that when a piece is virtually un-readable or the grammar is just very poor that grammar is virtually non-debatable, then I'd agree. However, if you were talking about pieces that are largely fine and it comes down to thinking a comma should be placed elsewhere and things like that, then it's largely subjective from person to person. My point of view is that if a piece is largely fine and easy to read, then there's no point in giving a line by line critique. Like I said above, I don't mean to single you out either Kas. Even though I've responded to you, I mean this post to be for everyone really so it's said in more general terms instead of personal ones. I think that a lot of the time, the problems when giving critiques tend to stem from the fact that mostly every critiquer has a different view on grammar and on writing. From there, they think they're right about what they say when all they have is an opinion. If I were to give out a critique and say a comma should be placed elsewhere because it reads awkwardly, another person would think it reads fine. Neither of us would likely be wrong. However, if we run into something like this: billy went to the hspital to see his mum.she was doing well. We can talk about grammar being non-debatable then. It's an extreme example as well but it highlights a case perfectly well where the grammar needs to be fixed and nobody can really argue against it. Now then, another example: Billy went to the hospital to see his mother, and he found out she was doing well. That would be debatable in my view. Personally, I'd remove the comma and the "and". In their place, I'd have a full stop but again, it's pretty much subjective. On the rare occasion I give out a critique, I focus on whether the writing is good and easy to read. I will point out a few nits, but that's only because I don't like to leave the hated 'it's great' comment. By and large, I don't need to point out more than four to five nits per piece because I don't tend to read/critique people's work anymore that's full of errors. When I post some of my own work, all I want by and large is to know if the piece was enjoyed or not. Or, if I've attempted to do something that's different, whether it works or not. I kinda work with the view that opinions don't really mean much in the long run and that's why I don't want or ask for much when posting my own work. However, get thirty or forty people saying the same thing as mentioned and it's probably not worthless then. Also, pointing out typos and non-debatable mistakes is perfectly fine, as is pointing out factual errors. I just don't think there's a need to rip into a piece that's perfectly fine and everything comes down to subjectivity. Anyways, the post kinda turned out longer than I intended and again, I meant this post to be directed at everyone really.
David, although your post was directed at everyone, I'll answer it. I think most people would agree with your general views on grammar. When I said that grammar was mostly non-debateable I was referring to new writers with exceptionally bad grammar, where a comma is simply 100% wrong, or the sentence is a comma-less runon where commas are required, etc. Most of the time when I make comma notes I indicate whether it's personal preference or not. Sometimes I forget and that's a personal failing, but I do tend to get better at this as I go. I also disagree with your view that if the piece reads "ok" then it's not worth giving a line-by-line critique. If the piece is very good, or has a lot of potential, there's always something to be gained by getting a fresh look. The point is to help the author turn a "good" piece into a great one. Many writers here are already highly skilled. For them the main point of posting (I think) is to get that fresh look and hopefully see the post in a new light. Often when people critique my work I don't use the suggestions specifically. The comments do, however, encourage me to think about my writing in new ways, adding a greater variety to my repertoire. Variety is more than the spice of life - it's an essential component in good writing. So even though the suggestion might not be "better" than the particular sentence it was meant to replace, the suggestion itself might not be a bad one in general. If the idea was truly lousy, then it's up to the writer to see that. If you can't tell a good idea from a bad one, then you really do have a long row to hoe, and the best place to start would probably be to read more before trying to write. Personally, I like the bad suggestions with the good. I don't want people to hold back when reviewing my work out of concern that their ideas might not be stunningly brilliant, or in some way superior to mine. When I say "all comments are appreciated" I really mean it. I say that to encourage people to speak their minds. Most comments, whether immediately applicable or not, will probably help my creative process and/or improve my ability to express myself and entertain effectively. This is a workshop; most people are looking for a lot more than that. If that is all you really want, then be sure to say so. When people don't want a thorough critique I really expect a heads up. They are the exception, not the rule. Well, okay, a lot of new members are just looking for approval, but those folks typically don't appreciate what this site is really about. Usually, they either come to learn how the site can help them - and become helpful, contributing members in their own right - or leave once they get the thumbs up.
I've been reviewing some stuff, but my big problem is that all the pieces I read and had something to say about it had already been read and had the exact things I wanted to say already said! This lent me onto a head nodding, thoroughly useless 'uh-huh' sort of pseudo-critique. I would also like to see the novel section in subcatagories. I have no real knowledge of things like fantasy and sci-fi, nor do I have the adequete reading experience to say whether these sort of things are good or not, and to trot down the novel list and find genre after genre that I'm just '' about is kind of annoying.
Sorry Kas, I only just noticed what you said in an edit where you quoted what I said at the bottom. My post wasn't about me really. I don't even post my work anymore. I think the last time I did was in January when I wanted some feedback on something and that was on a different forum. I don't really have time to even write fiction anymore or critique for that matter. Heck, my arm's killing at the moment from working hard on stuff that pays no matter how small it is. Think the last time I posted some work on here was one/two years ago? But my point was that people normally give a line by line critique on a work that is basically fine. I don't mind people doing that for me, but it's not exactly what I look for (though I'm always on the lookout for clear mistakes etc. being pointed out). I do also say what I want from a critique. I guess that at the end of the day while I acknowledge I'm quite far from the best writer, I realise I can write well enough even if the content isn't good. So, that's really the main reason I don't seek much more on a personal level. Regardless, I just wanted to give my viewpoint. Edit: One thing I do want to say though is that I do think it's helpful when we're dealing with something that's ready for being sent out even on a piece that's been written by someone who is clearly competent in their writing. But I guess I hold the view that a lot of people post work that isn't ready for being sent out to publishers. And by that, I mean not even close to it.
It's true that sometimes the new people seem to give less than the seniors, but it does have a logical answer for why they are doing that. Take me for example. I tend to hang around the writing tips so I can learn how to write. Once in a while I head over to the review room to check out some writing. As everyone knows, it's good to learn from others. However, I often read a story and think, "Wow, this is written so well!" Then I comment on a few things that stick out, like maybe a little grammar, or an awkward phrase. Usually I also read the comments of other reviewers. These reviewers are able to quote the whole story, and find something wrong with almost every sentence. Things I never would have noticed before. I find that fantastic, since I am not capable of doing something like that. The only problem is that sometimes the reviewers take it a little too far. They mention things like, "If she uncovered the book, then there must have been something covering it. What was covering it?" Sometimes details like "what is covering the book" are left out because they take away from the story. I would quickly get bored if I had to read, "Sarah used blue scissors to cut the pink silk ribbon. Then she undid the tape on the festive wrapping paper and pulled it away from the box inside. She opened the brown box and pulled out the bubble wrap. She unrolled the bubble wrap and inside found a little terracotta flower pot." Do I really care how Sarah unwrapped her gift? I shouldn't, especially if the story I was reading was a science fiction adventure. Another case was where a reviewer suggested taking out a part about, "brown scraggly hair hanging in her face." According to the reviewer it had nothing to do with the story. I actually thought it had everything to do with the story. That comment, along with the others, showed me a skinny, sickly, girl. It provides a contrast to a healthy girl with blond, bouncy, pipe curls in her hair. I did once comment on the whole story, but that was only because I could see many things that needed to be fixed. The reason I came here is to find ways to improve my writing. I haven't posted anything yet because I know there are ways that I can improve, and it would be silly to get the opinion of other people when you yourself know you can do better. So I'm here to learn how I could do that. P.S. I do often skip editing certain stories because the subject matter makes me uncomfortable. It's difficult to review something when the topic is far from where you usually go.
My take is that as long as I review work in order to learn (myself, I mean) how to put into words what various problems and conventions and skills account for the way I read stuff, then half the battle is won. Not only that, but finding the "language" to identify and talk about these matters helps my own writing immensely. If my thoughts and feedback are useful to the writer, then it works both ways, and I'm happy. If it doesn't, no matter; at least my take is one reader's take, and it's genuine. Any writer must develop the ability to determine what helps and what doesn't; and none of us write anything for the purpose of anticipating great criticism from readers, after all. So, no one's immune to feeling disappointed when a piece doesn't hit its mark (even if it's only a single reader). I don't feel like reciprocity is the best way to get useful feedback. Someone who's reviewing my work simply because I reviewed theirs may infuse that take with an attitude that doesn't help the review. I like reviews from folks who simply like to share their impressions and whatever expertise they may have. I don't have time, myself, to review everything I read, so I pick and choose what I can manage; I figure others are perfectly within their rights to do exactly the same. From what I've read here, your 80% new writer figure very likely accurately reflects the mix of active participants, really. Ditto to the appeal of short vs. long. But even on sites where there's a greater percentage of seasoned writers, the "complaint" is still very similar. Fiction and other writers aren't necessarily good reviewers (and vice versa). I don't know what you mean exactly by "one-sided" reviews, but as a reader all I can offer you with any sincerity is "my" particular take, best I can write it. Another thought that goes through my head is that I'd hesitate to post longer stories anyway, because of issues surrounding whether or not those stories could be construed as already "published." I mean, I don't post stories myself, which I don't feel are ready to be read--isolated paragraphs, first drafts, ideas, and that sort of thing. A lot of folks here do that, and that's fine. But I don't see the benefit myself. So, I'd be more likely to post something very short, though "complete" (in my mind)--both because I'd be more likely to get it read and might get some worthwhile reader impressions as well as some good advice, but also because I might not care so much about whether those stories could be rejected by an editor who doesn't want stories anywhere to be found on the internet.
In my opinion, your reactions and insights on these kinds of matters are as valid as those that might come from any other reader--however opposite their views might be from your own. If it were my own story I'd be happy to hear both and everything else in between. When writers (and readers) review award-winning or best-selling published work, the very same differences in perception arise; and lots of times heated debates follow (about who's reading correctly). The "art" of fiction is inevitably going to take shape differently in the minds of every individual reader (and writer-readers are probably the most opinionated of the bunch). As writers, we have to figure out what reactions matter to us (and some just don't), whether or not we can tweak something to overcome certain objections we hear, and how best to do all-the-above and still deliver the particular story in the way we alone feel compelled to write it. You've made some very good points.
I don't normally do line by line editing. Leave that to the technical types. I try to make my reviews short and give general advice a writer can use along with their own style and sensibility. I try not to make any "extra" critique that are irrelevant or stylistically bias. I do have a strong bias against using too many "ly" adverbs. Using ly too frequently looks immature and low brow. I notice it when an author makes "sophisticated" words using "ly". It's embarrassing and miserable to read. I'm not worried about other people's reviews in regards to my own writing, since I only write as a hobby. I try to put effort into the reviews I give people, at the same time, there's no point in putting too much. The writer is the one who is going to decide what advice is worth taking.
I prefer to review than to post myself. My work is never good enough for me so I don't like to show it off.
Hello everyone, iz stokd to behere! plz review my stuff. Is rly awsome! this guy does tihs thing where a girl cheats and she tells him i luv you lol but he be no getaway and then his mom yells at him to go to his room, but he runs and now he got married and piece bra! Ok, that was an attempt at humor, possibly a poor attempt. I am new, and I hardly consider myself a writer. It is funny that I only realized it now, looking through folders of practically ancient writings of mine, that I've been doing this for some time now. Still, writing a short story or poetry is quite different from the beast that must be tame--the novel. I have reviewed on piece so far, and while I may have offered some critique on the content, I did my best to make it clear that I was concerned mostly with preserving what I saw as the author's intent. I also believe in saying good things as well. Because of that, I will not review types that I couldn't read for pleasure. I'm not into vampires. If you had family hailing from Transylvania and had bed teeth like I do, you would get tired of vampire...well, vampire anything. So I will choose something that catches my eyes by its genre, or the hook. I want my critique to be useful. So if it's something I know nothing about or have little interest in, why should I write on it? What could I write on it? I feel I should mention this though, that I enjoy critiquing, as many have posted above, the process improves my own skill, as well as force me to go over issues such as clarity, plot holes, words repeated in a cacophonic manner, etc. I will keep track, but I have a feeling that I will not have a deficit, but a surplus. As far as my work, I am in no rush to submit, not because I'm nervous or ashamed. It is what it is. I cannot change my style. Fine, I could, but I wont. It's what makes my writing my own, however, I believe in submitting the best, most refined and polished version. I want it to impress, or better yet, not make no impression on grammar or structure, instead the story would envelop the reader and the characters should pull on him or her so hard that those heart strings snap! One thing I will work on is brevity. I have a tendency to ramble in text as opposed to my verbal persona. Few but poignant words. Hope this finds all of you well, AB
