Does Evil Need a Reason?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Elgaisma, Nov 24, 2010.

  1. Donal

    Donal New Member

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    In fact it might well be the scariest of all if the character has his reasons but we never get to know them.
     
  2. Jones6192

    Jones6192 New Member

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    Actually, I used to be on the side of the "Vader is such a poorly-written, incompetent, inconsistently-portrayed character"...until I read about Boderline Personality Disorder, which provides a possible explanation for why Vader seems to constantly be switching back and forth from immensely evil sociopath, to tragically misguided utilitarian, to pathetic and sad victim of the most evil Sith of all time, and then back to immensely evil sociopath. Read up on BPD. It convinced me that Vader has this disorder, and is thus an incredibly fascinating psychological subject.

    As for the debate on what constitutes evil and what motives you need to be evil, I personally don't believe in the concept of "pure evil." That is a lie that was invented by religion so that believers would have a scapegoat to pin all the world's troubles on. What is Satan, for instance, if not the go-to guy when you need to explain bad things happening? The idea of "pure evil" is a joke, a pathetic excuse for people to forever shun someone or something, just because we don't agree with them.

    Now, there is such a thing as "bad people," people who perform terrible, unforgivable crimes, but I firmly believe in the human capacity to do the right thing and better ourselves. Every person, even supremely messed-up and disgusting people like Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein, could have been heroes if they had simply possessed the same morals and compassion for others that we have, but unfortunately life dealt them a bad brain, and they became monsters for it. Nobody is "pure evil": everyone has the choice to do good. I'm sorry if I sound way too sympathetic towards bad people, but after living in a Christian household that teaches the concept of "pure evil," I simply have had enough of that black-and-white prejudiced thinking.

    If there are people who do awful things, we have an obligation to HELP them, not simply write them off as "evil". If we did that, we'd have the death penalty for every single murderer, rapist and pedophile in the world. We are all human, and if we do bad things, we need aid. Think about it: even maniacs like Hitler had some traits we usually associate with good people. For instance, he deeply loved his dog, Blondie. If he were really "pure evil," he would not have any compassion for a single living thing. Now, I'm in no way defending Hitler as a human being; I am simply making the point that the concept of "pure evil" is a form of prejudice and unwillingness to forgive.

    That is why the villain in my story, who is a terrible, terrible piece of work, has a backstory which reveals her to be a victim of one of the worst crimes imaginable: child abuse. Therefore, she has a believable reason for growing up to become a monster who has never learned love or compassion, but she still had the choice to ignore and overcome her dark beginnings and try to better herself. That is the root of all bad people: they had something awful happen to them which shaped their entire outlook on life, not born with "original sin" or whatever the hell its called. Read Frankenstein for a perfect example of how people are born inherently neutral, morally, and it is how they are raised and their environment that shapes who they are.
     
  3. SRCroft

    SRCroft New Member

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    Gray

    I agree, fine lines of gray are in anything I write. Any real life situation is shaded in gray and never fully definable. I think Christianity as you use in your example, however, is based more on the teacher and interpretation. Satan has his goals and motives like any bad guy, however, if you were almost as equal to the king of a Godly world and found out your ruler was going to have you bow down and serve a weak pathetic race he created, you'd go nuts. I mean it was an understandable outburst in a sense and what we see as evil could have a lot of hurt and pain on his end. It is a 3-D, understandable conflict. Unfortunately, as you said, most religious teachings focus on the black and white of it all. (Not really wanting to go into religion but these are things in there that the people you mention, avoid to read or think about.) In my opinion those people see it as a fake story if they are not willing to look at everything for how it is.
     
  4. Flibbertibbit

    Flibbertibbit New Member

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    I'm sitting here, trying to think of an example of 'evil' that has no reason, that isn't motivated by anything. To be honest, it's very difficult. There usually is something, however lame sometimes, but I think I came up with one.

    What about evil that is not intended? Evil that is brought forth as a byproduct of some other intention. That evil would have no direct motivation, no intention, but just motivation for whatever process that creates it.

    For example, although it is kind of opposite to the above suggestion, is a character in native Alaskan creation stories. The character Raven, a devious trickster who is motivated only to acquire food and sex (basic necessities) without thought of others. It is this greed that creates the known world as a byproduct, not as a intended outcome. He literally, accidentally creates mankind. Woops. So just imagine a character, say Bob, who strives to do good in life but creates evil as a byproduct (not sure how, use your imagination). He doesn't intend to do so, is not motivated to do so, and has no reason to do so, but only wishes and is motivated by good.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.... yeah this is all I got. I think all actions are simply reactions to some motivation, evil or not. Even flat, 2D, phsychos from slasher movies have reasons, stimuli, for killing people, even if that reason is just "he enjoys it" or "he's psycho."
     
  5. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    A lot of people seem to assume that giving your villain reasons to be evil is the same thing as excusing or sympathising with them... it doesn't have to be. It's usually easier to sympathise with someone once you understand their motivation, but the reasons can also be unsympathetic.

    For example, if a character in a fantasy story destroys the two main characters' love just because he's evil and hates people being happy, it makes him a one-dimensional comic book villain.
    If instead, he does it because he's jealous, he has a reason for his actions, but it doesn't really excuse them or make them more sympathetic.
     
  6. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    I agree that sociopaths don't need a real reason to be what we perceive as "evil", BUT, the interesting thing is that sociopaths tend to have flat and uninteresting characters. I mean real people with sociopathic disorders in real life. Researchers who have studied sociopaths sometimes say their motivations are shallow and there's not much going on under the surface.
     
  7. Tessie

    Tessie Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I agree. Being plain evil is not a viable reason for a character's actions. A character always has a reason, but that does not mean we readers can empathize.
     
  8. Vince524

    Vince524 New Member

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    Again, you have to come back to two things. Most people who are evil don't think themselves as evil. Hitler, Bin Laden, Mouseline probably all thought they were the good guys. So An evil dudes intentions can be twisted and evil in nature, but they have to be there.

    People do things for reasons. Good, bad or indifferent. Why risk death, jail, being banned from the Mickey Mouse club if it's not for something.
     
  9. SashaMerideth

    SashaMerideth New Member

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    I don't know if this has been covered or not... Let's say our evil guy has his reasons but they are unknown to the protag. Can we tell a story without revealing why our baddie is so bad?
     
  10. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Thinking about the character that sparked this debate - turns out she did have a reason she wanted death. However she would not have risked any of the above because of who she was - it was entirely possible for her to have done it just because she felt like.

    Part of me things of the teen pranks that go wrong, the drunk guy peeing on a war memorial etc those actions happen just because the person can. I actually think that is how my character started a reason has since developed. She merely got up one morning and thought you know what I'll do it this way. Making the action rather than the person evil. Kind of like Pandora or Eve or Lilith none of them were evil however their actions brought about evil.
     
  11. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Then it's not evil. It would just be bad stuff happening. **** happens.

    Evil, in whatever way one likes to think of the concept, requires intent. I don't for a second believe in cosmic good and evil -- they're entirely man-made concepts -- but I wouldn't find it hard to apply the word evil to someone who tortured an animal or other person for fun. It has intent: "for fun". If the same person had just slipped on a bar of soap and accidentally landed on a cat, breaking its tail, any concept of evil would have no place in that context.
     
  12. Flibbertibbit

    Flibbertibbit New Member

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    Well no, not exactly. "Evil", being an outward look from one character to another, by definition is in the eye of the beholder. As was posted before, I'm sure Hitler, etc., considered them to be doing good things. I doubt Hitler killed millions because he thought that the world needed more evil. He had a vision, however twisted (yet, obviously Hitler didn't think it was unreasonable), to do some good. So one can argue that Hitler did not intend evil in a sense, but others view his actions as evil.

    But, nonetheless, there were reason behind his actions. **** never 'just happens'. We only fail to supply reason for actions that have to prior actions, such as creation itself. Of course, this hearkens back to the age-old question, "why do we exist'? What was the intention behind the creation of the universe (please humor me, I'm not promoting creationism), which may be viewed as the original creation of evil? If 'God just willed it to be' then who willed God to be? It's an infinite loop that kinda hurts to think about.... It's infinite until, of course, we just say '**** happens.'
     
  13. Vince524

    Vince524 New Member

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    Indifference to the consequences is telling in and of itself. A drunk guy peeing on a war memorial? Is he so drunk he has no idea what he's doing? That's not evil, it's being drunk. Or is it that he is doing something that he wouldn't if sober but would still want to. More info would be needed here.
     
  14. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    The fact is indifference ie no real reason can cause evil - the children that play chicken killing another. The peeing on the war memorial caused people distressed - he may use being drunk as his defence but then his reason becomes he wasn't sober.
     
  15. Zombie_Chinchilla

    Zombie_Chinchilla New Member

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    Yes, I think evil needs a reason. Otherwise, the character would be flat. Personally, it's a pet peeve of mine that the antagonist is evil "just because."

    What happened to the character that made them the way they are? How did they react with their family when they were younger? Did they have friends? What bad experiences did they have in there lives? And how did these experiences impact their lives?

    Characters don't just become evil. Slowly, throughout their lives, it consumes them.
     
  16. TerXIII

    TerXIII New Member

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    In my opinion, evil doesn't really exist in mortals. In order for something to be evil, in my opinion, it must be exclusively harmful. There is no act that is exclusively harmful, simply because humans do not commit actions without a reason.

    Simple pleasure is enough to make an action fall out of the evil category in my mind.

    I prefer my antagonists to actually be good people, just with opposing viewpoints to the protagonist... On the other hand, I like a character that's hard to place on a moral spectrum, and I don't like having defined protagonists and antagonists. In my opinion, a well-written story only has an antagonist because it is told from a singular point of view in which the antagonist is merely opposed to the main character.
     
  17. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Not every antagonist is a human of course. Not sure if my one is human and immortal or of another species. They hold a dominant gene.

    Her actions would have harmed every living thing in the universe that had ever lived - including herself.
     
  18. TerXIII

    TerXIII New Member

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    I dunno, what's the real point of the story though? If it's just a conflict, I'm sure it'll make a nice story, just... I dunno, without some form of societal commentary, I find a lot of books and short stories tiresome.

    I really dislike "just because" bad guys. But that's just me. I think it's probably because Good/Evil are very useful monikers by nature, but really aren't all that practical when it comes to depicting reality.
     
  19. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    What I was saying is that for an act to be regarded as either good or evil (through consensus morality), it must have some kind of intent. Accidents do happen -- and althought they can always be tracked back through causality to some kind of cause, they (by definition of accident) had no intent and cannot be regarded as good or evil. That's exactly why "involuntary manslaughter" and "murder" are seperate issues under law.
     
  20. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    But you don't necessarily get tp see the reason. In Steinbeck's East of Eden we never really find out why Cathy Ames is so evil (although once she is established as inclined to evil we see things that reinforce that inclination). I don't think she's flat as a character, although that might be because in the context of Steinbeck's Jewish heritage which he draws on so strongly for the symbolism in East of Eden I tend to read Cathy Ames as a representation of Lilith. We do get an idea of why Lilith is evil from Jewish folklore.
     
  21. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Although an act may not be good or evil the consequences can be. If someone kills my husband through an act of involuntary manslaughter or murder the consequences to my family are the same. The husband and father is removed.
     
  22. Donal

    Donal New Member

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    I don't think thats the point though Elgaisma. I admit perception is huge in deciding whats good and whats evil but you are talking about a character having (or not having) a reason to commit evil acts.

    I would like to think that god forbid someone was to cause the accidental death of a family member of mine, although I would probably hate that person forever I would be able to understand that they are not an evil character. By contrast someone who tried and failed to intentionally someone would be to me more evil.
     
  23. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I think that is perhaps where definitions can be different. Someone can in fact do evil with no serious intent of evil. The drunk driver who gets into a car and kills someone because their reflexes were slow wasn't thinking of killing someone when they got into the car. Reckless and stupid yes but their intent was probably to get home.

    The effect upon the loved ones who have lost the person is something they have to live with.
     
  24. Donal

    Donal New Member

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    Yea I know that but you are talking about a character who does evil for no reason, a "just because" kind of thing. That is completely different to someone whose unintentional actions happen to cause evil.
     
  25. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Is it though? The kids playing chicken on a road - one of them gets hurt. Did they intend to get hurt - No - however they probably knew the actions were dangerous. The effects don't change, and evil or wrong action is committed with no intent.

    Not sure that would be much different to someone who did evil just because they could. They don't intend evil just thought they would try it - it seemed cool at the time. That is how I actually think my character may have started - it grew into a reason - but the intial acts were because she could.
     

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