1. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    Does my world model make any sense?

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by ITBA01, Oct 10, 2018.

    The world I've created involves four planes of existence, which each exist alongside each other. However, I can't help but feel like something is wrong, and it doesn't make sense. I thought it would be good to get a second opinion, so here's a brief overview of how the four planes.

    Aether - A plane of pure energy, and the fuel of creation. It corresponds to the soul of man.

    Unconscious - A world where the aether is first shaped by creative forces. It corresponds to the subconscious of man.

    Astral - A world where the ideas created by Unconscious reside. This is the first world where the ideas of time and space exist, though they aren't as concrete as the Physical World. It corresponds to the imagination of man.

    Physical - The universe, where the ideas from the astral world take shape in matter.

    The main issues I've been thinking of is how the subconscious exists outside of time, which I'm not sure if I've fully figured out. Any feedback would be appreciated.
     
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  2. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    A: Why do you need four plains instead of just one or two?
    B: What's the difference between the subconscious and the imagination? What's the difference between the creative forces and the imagination?
    C: Do things created in the unconscious stop appearing there and move to the astral once fully formed?
    D: If "ideas from the astral world take shape in matter" in the physical universe, why can't people just think things into being?
     
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  3. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    I don't know if I have an answer for the first question, but I'll try to give my reasoning for the other ones.

    B: The subconscious is where ideas are formed, and the imagination is where they appear (similar to how decisions are made in the subconscious mind before you're aware of them). The creative forces are more like cosmic gods, similar to a demiurge.

    C: Things aren't really created in the subconscious, but rather the base for their existence is. Think of Plato's Forms (it's not a perfect analogy, but it's the closest I could come up with).

    D: The ideas which take form are determined by deities, and the process is accomplished through magic energy.
     
  4. SolZephyr

    SolZephyr Member Supporter

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    Edit: I just realized I wasn't answering the question you actually asked. Give me a moment and I'll try again.
     
  5. SolZephyr

    SolZephyr Member Supporter

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    So, your big question is about the subconscious can exist outside of time, right? Well, I can think of two solutions.

    1) the subconscious is a static construct that affects all points in time simultaneously. It would basically be a mathematical function that you apply to another function. It would essentially mean destiny is set in stone for the Physical plane, and that if anything ever were to change in the Unconscious, Astral, or Aether it would change all of history for the Physical worlds.

    2) Have multiple time dimensions. The subconscious would be forced to move forward in one time dimension but is free to move about in the other. Think of a computer program that calculates the entire history of a virtual world every second in our time. For the inhabitants of the world, time only moves forward, but for us, we can see the entire history of the world. Time keeps moving forward for us in our time dimension, but we are free to poke and prod at any point in their's, and the program would update their entire history every time we do something. The subconscious could exist on the same plane as us humans in this analogy, and the Physical plane would be the virtual world.

    Hope that isn't too confusing and, more importantly, is helpful.
     
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  6. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    This might help a lot. Thank you.
     
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  7. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Member

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    Subconscious does not live outside of time.

    If you leave all unnecessary mystic away, subconscious is everything we know but have forgot that we know.

    You can define it also as systems we know and use without recognising that we know and use them.

    So it has a very clear bind to time:
    - When it has developed.
    - When we learn it.
    - When we use it.
    - When effects of using it emerge.

    And often also:
    - When we became conscious about something that has been under our conscious perception.

    At least 4-5 binds to time. Hard to think it exists outside time.

    You can off course create (subconscious)^2 - a subsubconscious, but it will be qualitatively different thing.

    Most ideas are formed in conscious thinking.

    Their seed might sprout under conscious thinking. But when those seeds start to get some form that we can see, they are already in conscious world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  8. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    Firstly, I'd say, keep it simple. How much of this do you need in order to tell the story?

    What actually happens in practice? Do people imagine things and then somehow have those things? Does the imaginings of one character end up in the mind of another? Do people acquire knowledge without making a discovery?
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You say "corresponds to", but do you mean that it's a metaphor, or are you saying that human souls literally live in the Aether, their imaginations really live in the Astral, and so on?

    I'm unclear on how this concept functions.
     
  10. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    Yes, souls exist within Aether, and imagination exists in the Astral.
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    How does this affect the story?
     
  12. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    I'm not sure. I'm more trying to make a cohesive magic system, seeing as magic is a major part of the story. The Astral World plays a major role.
     
  13. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    You don't need four realms to make a magic system, you just need some basic rules about what magic can and cannot do.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I am still failing to get it. Maybe you need to explain more.
     
  15. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    After more thought, I've decided to get rid of the subconscious world, as it just seems to needlessly complicate things (thank you to the people who helped me realize that).
    I'll try to best explain how my magic system works (I haven't figured out everything, but I more or less have the basics down). Magic, in my book, basically makes up the universe. It starts in Aether, which is the collective soul of the universe and all life, is given different forms and functions in the Astral World, which is the world of ideas, and is completed through the Physical World, which is the material universe. These laws that apply to the universe, also apply (on a smaller scale) to conscious beings, who are able to use aether to fuel their magic, and use their mind to shape it in order to get the desired effect. However, because they're limited by ego (the sense of being them) their energy is also limited, which stops them from essentially doing whatever they want (like blowing up a planet). I should also point out that these three worlds aren't separated by space, and they all overlap. Hope this helps.
     
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  16. Infel

    Infel Senior Member

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    I like what you have so far. Some folks say don't stress things unless they directly impact the story, but others absolutely have to get the system working just to have the basis to put together the story in the first place. I'm 100% in your camp, and I know creating the system can be downright frustrating--especially since you don't really want to create the nitty-gritty magic rules without having a fundamental to refer to as a base. They say 90% of what an author needs to create in order to write their story is stuff the audience never sees. I sure understand that, and I feel your pain here!

    Your system seems to me sort of like a funnel--as if the Aether is so tremendous in scope that to try and tap into it would be a mistake of the third degree. It sounds like all the potential for magic starts there, and slowly makes its way through the other planes as it refines and shapes itself.

    Some questions:

    If the Aether realm contains all of the potential for creation, and man's soul is a part of it, do they have a direct connection to the flow of Aether? If the physical realm is so far below the Aether, do humans have to reach back up through the other realms in order to tap into the Aether? Can they utilize it for magic at all? Are there repercussions? Do they need to pass through the unconscious, through the subconscious, to tap into it? Does meditation and exploration of one's soul allow access to this realm and the potential it possesses? Does that mean a soul is a physical entity that can be observed and measured?

    The Subconscious world is very intriguing. If you were to take the Carl Jung route, and go for a sort of 'collective unconscious' mentality--i.e. the collected learned knowledge of the species rather than individual knowledge--I think that could be a REALLY cool concept. If Aether is molded here, it would make sense for any deities you have to come together in this realm and think "alright, what do we want this species to know inherently, separate from any learned knowledge they gain during their life?" It would literally be the realm where Aether takes shape--the place where your God characters imbue instinct and base animalistic tendencies into all the creations of your universe. Although it sounds sort of like a factory assembly line, I think there's a lot of potential in it.

    I don't really understand the Unconscious world. Going off of the first two, this would, by my logic at any rate, be the realm where Aether/magic morphs into ideas. It would seem to me this is the realm where humans recieve those crazy, profound ideas for new inventions or spells--this seems like a world where humans would wake from a dream shouting "Eureka!" because they had tapped into it to discover some sort of esoteric idea that only exists when magic hits the unconscious. What is the purpose of this realm, in your mind? What does it exist to accomplish, or what does Aether moving through it lose before it's been distilled enough for use in the physical realm?

    Physical Realm - EZPZ it's the universe, no need to explore that further.

    I was really intrigued by your four realms and I hope this helped in some way. I'll be eager to see where you go from here!
     
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  17. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    I've actually already started my first draft, as I would be trapped in development limbo if I didn't force myself to. I have the basis for magic set up, but it's a lot of the smaller details that I have trouble figuring out.

    In regards to Aether, I should've probably explained it better. Aether isn't soul in the sense that most would think; the spirit which separates from the body after death (that's more in line with the ideas of the Astral World). Rather, it's just an energy that permeates all the aspects of Reality, and allows them to exist in the first place. People tap into it just by doing something as simple as blinking, even if they don't realize it. It's everything all at once, but the one thing it lacks is limitation. That's where the lower planes come in. Also, in regards to lower planes, they aren't separated by space (as space isn't a concept that exists in Aether), but they exist alongside each other.

    I actually researched Jung's ideas, which had a lot of influence in regards to my writing. In regards to the Astral World, it's basically what most people think of when they think of the spirit world/afterlife. It's where beings such as gods of polytheism reside, and influence the Physical World. Nothing exists in the Physical World without existing as an idea in the Astral World.
     
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  18. Infel

    Infel Senior Member

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    Ah, that makes sense with what you said earlier about Plato's "Forms"! That's incredibly interesting. I'll be excited to see where you take it.
     
  19. Some Guy

    Some Guy dilettante assassin! Supporter

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    Passing from the Dream Circle to the Spirit Circle
    I had created a similar setting in The Circle where existence could be thought of as circles within each other.
    The Spirit Circle was where all 'souls' and Eternals resided. (see note)
    The Dream Circle (Id) was an infinite 'conduit' with the Spirit Circle, where you surrender your awareness in the physical world, to open yourself to The Swirl, a place that shows all things that exist, past, present, and future. (out of time)
    The Dream Circle was also the begining of your awareness, and a very important place you could return to.
    The First Circle, or Inner Circle, or Ego, was yourself at birth, a physical thing that can be changed with time, and interacts with all physical things. From it, other Circles expand outward as you interact with the world and other people (and their Circles).

    Note: Eternals actually exist in The Void. From there, they 'express' realities that become matter and energy. They can 'touch' anything within that expression. They can observe other expressions, but only 'touch' The Dream Circle.
    Only The Eternal, Love, can touch absolutely everything and 'call' The Swirl (a manifestation with its own will). The Swirl can be a terrifying force. It is the 'Ferryman' of existence. If you touch or take anything in The Swirl, it takes life. If anything touches you, or is given to you, you gain that, and possibly life as well (at the cost of living beyond your years). If you can communicate in The Swirl, you have a rare and precious gift.

    To use magic would require reaching through The Swirl to grasp whatever particulr or general effect you want from the Void, at a cost, of course. Unless magic was part of the original Expression. The circumstance, process and mechanism for that would be your 'expression'. :-D

    ETA slight addn to end
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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