1. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    8,664

    Does this make sense?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by J.T. Woody, Mar 5, 2021.

    I know come companies will pay others to represent their companies during projects for exposure. This is kind of along those lines.

    does it make sense for a hardware store to pay an employee to go help a team of house flippers?
    The idea is that, while he is helping the flippers, he is a "brand ambassador" trying to drum up business for the hardware store. All of the equipment and stuff used in flipping the house will be from that hardware store.

    Does this make sense/happen in the real world or am I just completely making it up?
     
    ThunderAngel likes this.
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,460
    Likes Received:
    13,504
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Sounds right to me. I guess he'd wear a store shirt on the job.
     
    J.T. Woody likes this.
  3. GlitterRain7

    GlitterRain7 Galaxy Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    904
    I don't know that I've heard of this exact scenario before, but I don't think it's impossible. Any exposure you want to include within the story would probably be directed towards the city/town, though, unless the hardware store is a large chain. People would be unlikely to drive five hours to go to a hardware store because they saw the employee helping flippers in the newspaper/TV/online article.
     
  4. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    959
    I think this is more likely to happen with a high profile renovation, or perhaps if it's to assist one of those house flipping tv shows. I doubt a hardware company would do it for a random team of houseflippers earning a living.

    So if it were for the team renovating the iconic Gibson House in the historic district or to help the cable show 'Strip it and Flip It', it's more believable.
     
    Chekhov's pen and Xoic like this.
  5. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    959
    Another scenario I could think of would be if they were helping Habitat for Humanity or something like that.

    My 'Better Call Saul' influence is showing, but now I'm imagining an unscrupulous hardware store owner going down to a site when he knows the local news will be there, acting nonchalant and then when they tap him on the shoulder and ask what he's doing there he turns around wearing a 'Bob's Hardware Store' shirt and says "Oh, I'm Bob and I heard they needed help so I'm donating all the tools for this project. Don't forget you can get what you need at Bob's Hardware: Building a Better Tomorrow at Yesterday's Prices"
     
    J.T. Woody and Xoic like this.
  6. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    Disclaimer: I am an architect and a building inspector, and I know house flippers.

    With that as background: IMHO your idea makes no sense at all. That's not how house flipping works in the real world.
     
  7. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    8,664
    Can you elaborate?

    My over all aim is to get my MC to meet someone through the hardware store who will rent him one of the efficiency houses he's renovated.

    My initial plan was that the house flipper is the relative of the hardware store owner and he lets the relative use his stores equipment with the trade off being his people wearing the hardware store shirts.
    He knows his employee is in search of a place to live so he sends him to help with his relatives renovations and the relative eventually agrees to rent the place to him.

    Thats where i was going with the whole scenario. If it makes no sense, i have no knowledge of the business to come up with a new one or know the right search terms to lead me to one.
     
  8. mrieder79

    mrieder79 Probably not a ground squirrel Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    377
    Location:
    Uyumbe
    The idea would work in the context of a TV-flipper reality show, in which the hardware store will get advertisement for, basically, sponsoring the flippers. Otherwise it really doesn't seem to make much sense, as the hardware store isn't going to get much in return for the loss of an employee.

    If a tv reality show idea doesn't mesh with your story concept, perhaps you could introduce some sort of crisis on behalf of the flippers. Maybe something happens to their crew and they have to hire some local fix-it guys who also happen to work at the hardware store, or something like that.
     
    J.T. Woody likes this.
  9. alw86

    alw86 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    371
    Location:
    UK
    I have renovated though not flipped several houses myself, and have a number of friends and longterm aquaintances in the building trade, and I just don't see how this would work, unless it was a big national chain joining up with a TV show or something. Otherwise it's hard to see that paying for someone else's labourer could possibly work out in the hardware store's favour. It would be waaaay more expensive for them than any revenue brought in is likely to balance out, plus there are fun things like insurance to consider.

    A much more likely scenario IMO is that the hardware store employee remarks on some large orders to the house flipper customer and they get talking. The customer might then mention eco homes for rent and the employee could go 'hey I actually need somewhere to live'. Alternative, if you really need them to work together, the house flipper could be short on general labour and offer to take the employee on on his days off.
     
    J.T. Woody likes this.
  10. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    959
    I know that some employees of big retail hardware stores work on the side taking contracts, but I don't know what the rules are for soliciting on the job. A smaller store may not care or the boss may be absent a lot so it doesn't get noticed.

    A more plausible scenario is where the person goes in the store and reads off an on inventory list of supplies and the hardware employer says

    "will you be needing some 3 mil underlayment?"

    "No, we're installing high end laminate"

    "Are you new here?"

    "Yeah, we just moved from Buffalo"

    "This is South Florida. Trust me, you need it, even it were real hardwood."

    "Thanks, you install flooring?"

    "Sometimes, whenever I can fit it around my schedule."
     
  11. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,771
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    That's totally fine.

    "Hey, Bobby, want to help my out and lend me some equipment?"

    "No problem, Jimbo. Just make sure you wear the shirts and pimp the business."

    Now, as far as the institution of "house flippers" is constructed (get it? constructed?), and how much exposure their tee-shirts are going to get unless they're on TV? Debatable. But most contractors will ask their clients to put the sign for their business in their yard. And their construction vehicles--even if only a personal one--will always have the name of the business and contact information on the side (unless the contractor is an idiot). When we bought our house and had some work done, nearly all of my neighbors asked me who was doing the work, whether we were satisfied, whether we'd recommend the contractors to others, etc. The same thing could apply to a hardware store that provided the materials. However, if it's a small local store that hasn't been taken behind the woodshed by Lowe's or Home Depot, everyone probably knows about them anyway.

    I think you might be overthinking this. Is the gag a small plot element or is the whole story intended to be a tutorial on house flipping and local hardware store pimping? If not the latter, the reader won't care. Nobody is going to put the book down over and scream to the sky, "That's not how house-flipping and hardware stores work!" Unless the reader is a nit-picking idiot, in which case, there's probably three dozen other things that'll turn them off.
     
  12. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    1. House flippers don't rent houses. They buy fixer-uppers, fix them up as cheaply as possible, and then sell them for as much profit as they can get out of a quick sale ... then they move on to the next one. They don't want to be landlords.
    2. No contractor -- house flipper or otherwise -- gets new equipment for each project. Most house flippers don't have a lot of equipment or do most of the work themselves anyway. Depending on what needs doing, a flip may involve carpentry, drywall ("sheetrock"), plumbing, electrical, kitchen cabinets, bathroom fixtures, painting, roofing, and/or siding. In the United States, plumbing, electrical, heating and air conditioning can only be done by tradesmen who are licensed to practice those trades, and they would already have their tools ("equipment"). Sheetrocking isn't rocket surgery, but taping the sheetrock is an art unto itself. Even small contractors who hang sheetrock themselves generally hire professionals to do the taping, because it's cheaper to get it done right the first time than to waste days futzing around with trying to repair the typical amateur job.
    3. Hardware stores sell hardware, some small tools, and paint. "hardware stores" don't sell "building materials" -- lumber, roofing, sheetrock, bathtubs, sinks, kitchen cabinets, etc. Since the subcontractors to a typical house flipper already have their own tools and equipment and the materials they will need generally aren't available from a "hardware store" -- I don't see your hardware store being positioned to contribute anything to the project other than perhaps some hinges and door locks, and paint.
    4. The notion of a house flipper having a team of "his people" working on a project isn't anywhere close to reality. As noted, most workers on any residential project are subcontractors in various specialty fields. I have friends who are residential contractors. They have NO "staff." All work is performed by subcontractors. The guys I know come from a carpentry background, so they might do some finish carpentry, hang a few doors, install the kitchen cabinets, etc. themselves. That's the extent of it.
    What's an "efficiency" house? An efficiency apartment is basically a one-room apartment in which part of one wall is used as a kitchen area. There is no analog to that in detached houses. I would have to open the Residential Code book to verify but I don't think it would even be allowed under the building codes in effect in any state.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  13. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    8,664

    Thank you.

    one would call it a "tiny house/home".
     
  14. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    959
    Not sure what you mean by 'tiny house', but this has a specific meaning where I'm from, it's like a very, very small mobile home. I doubt it would be worth renovating by a professional, it might be cheaper to just buy a new one. The owner might be inclined to renovate it though.
     
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  15. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    Ah -- the tiny house fad. Yes, I'm fairly familiar with it.

    That said, I can't imagine that any house flipper would EVER get involved in trying to flip a tiny house. It's an extremely limited market. The number of people who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to exist in a tiny home is so low that it wouldn't be worth a flipper's effort to get involved. In addition, too many tiny homes are made of non-standard materials and components, and that severely impacts the cost of replacing anything that needs to be replaced.

    The nature of tiny houses limits the pool of prospective buyers. That's a death sentence to a house flipper. The goal for a house flipper is to buy a very standard product that needs work (mostly cosmetic) that can be refurbished quickly and CHEAPLY, and then marketed quickly.

    If you are getting your ideas from the cable TV and YouTube channels on house flippers -- those aren't the mainstream. Normal house flippers don't "remodel" houses, to the extent of tearing down and moving walls and such. As much as possible they look for houses that are structurally sound but "cosmetically challenged." They want to put on a new roof, replace the 40-year old bathroom fixtures and kitchen counters, slap on a coat of paint, and sell it.
     
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  16. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I work part time for a large DIY chain (aka The Big Blue Box Store) and it's totally against the rules for us to moonlight doing construction/finish labor for anyone we meet while selling them products at the store. Insurance and all that.
     
  17. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    959
    Back to the OP's original question, for now you could just put down a semi-realistic encounter where they meet up using the suggestions here and then when you do your first revision you can reexamine it.

    That's one of the things I like about Scrivener and similar software that you can high light specific text and also add notes, pictures etc. to the side so when you go back to the chapter and scene all of the stuff is there to reevaluate whatever sticking point you had.

    Don't let getting this scene perfected slow you down from getting the rest of your ideas on paper (or screen).
     
  18. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    @J.T. Woody, I seriously doubt any contractor or subcontractor on such a job would agree to have his crew wear the shirts/vests of the store supplying the materials. They'd want the public (if these people are exposed to the public, through some kind of TV show or YouTube channel) to wear uniforms advertising their own contracting businesses.

    Unless you're making out that the flipper has his own, tied crew (which, as @SapereAude notes, rarely is the case). Even with that, if the workers are identified with the store and something goes wrong, guess who gets sued?

    It's more likely the hardware store would put a big sign out front proclaiming, "All Supplie's and Material's Provided by Joe's Hardware & Lumber." :D

    I have to wonder if you're making this scenario too complicated. Is your object to get Joe's Hardware & Lumber some big publicity, or is it to get the rep from Joe's Hardware & Lumber into one of these houses?

    Say it's the former. And say Joe's Hardware & Lumber is competing for market share against the Big Blue Box Store and the Orange Store. That's where word of mouth among the contractors and offering great deals come in--- not switching workshirts.

    If it's the latter, the employee could be Joe's Pro Services rep, in which case he definitely would be working closely with the flipper to make sure he has everything he needs at a good rate. And if the job is big enough (knowing what I know from my work), he would occasionally visit the site to make sure everything is in order. Note, all this time he would be Joe's employee and Joe's alone. And he wouldn't be out on the site drumming up business; Joe is already the supplier on that job and the Pro Services employee would be focussed on helping the customer get it done.

    But if he happens to admire the work in progress and mentions he's looking for a house like one of those, I doubt there's anything to prevent Mr. Flipper from selling one to him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  19. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    If it has anything to do with a local hardware store competing against Big Blue and Big Orange ... forget it. That makes no sense at all. They can't compete ... period, full stop.

    In my area, Big Orange got here first and put not just small hardware stores but also fairly large, local lumber and building supply companies on the ropes. Then Big Blue showed up, and KO'd everybody that was still standing. I don't think there's a "local" hardware store left in my entire state. I'm quite certain there are none left in my county. All the hardware stores that are left are franchisees for one of the two or three major chains, such as True Value and Ace. There is one independent lumber company that's still holding on, but the two that I did business with for decades are long gone. One of them lasted less than a year after Big Orange opened a store right across the street from them. Until Big Orange showed up, they were THE place to buy building materials.
     
  20. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    In my neck of the woods we still have some smaller regional chains going. It can happen, and does. And as you say, there are the Ace and True Value franchises.

    We also have some specialty lumber yards, that sell trim profiles you can't get at the national franchises.
     
  21. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    8,664
    Thnks everyone for the input. I've figured out what i wanted to do.
    Really, the purpose of this thread was to come up with a logical and realistic reason why/how this 18 year old could meet a person who could hook him up with a rental (something he is hopeful about despite people around him telling him it wont work out.) rather than just writing "then magically he found a house to live in". I wanted the "how" part so that i could set up a conflict later on.
    I got what i needed: its a logical meeting BUT not realistic.
    I thank those who offer alternatives, those were helpful.
     
    Catrin Lewis likes this.
  22. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    4,406
    Likes Received:
    4,755
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    This has me thinking how things often are at the Paint desk where I work.

    (Yes, yes, I know you've said you've come up with a solution. Indulge me.)

    We're trained to ask about customers' projects, and from time to time someone comes in who says he's a landlord looking for a lot of cheap paint to redo all his properties. Or I'll find out she's a landlady when I ask her more about "her house." Occasionally I'll ask how much they're charging for rent. I admit, the answer always makes me feel smug about having my own house--- around here, rental on a two bedroom apartment is more than what I pay for my mortgage, including taxes and insurance. But the rent in your story doesn't have to be that high. And the young employee could very well go on to rent from the customer.

    If I understand you right, you want there to be something about the transaction that falls afoul of the employer's rules, or something that gets the employer in trouble, such that the young employee bears the brunt of it?

    Again, you state you've got all that figured out. But here's this: The landlord could give the employee a super discount on the rent, with the understanding that from here on the employee will discount materials and supplies sold to the landlord, whether he should or not. Where I work at Big Blue, we ordinary CSAs are granted discretion to take up to 50% off, if the item is missing parts or is damaged. If an item is out of stock and we sell the customer a higher-priced item instead, we can mark it down to the cost of the item they wanted.

    None of that applies, however, if the product is in stock and in perfect condition. But an employee desperate to keep his cheap housing could kinda-sorta arrange for product to look damaged, where it doesn't really matter . . .

    (Don't mind me. I love working out problems in other people's stories. It distracts me from having to deal with mine.)
     
    J.T. Woody and Lifeline like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice