Ok I don't know if this is a trope or not, but if it is it's like...really silly. Most of the time you only see it in Fire Emblem so they can justify sexualizing dragon loli's. But other series (anime, games, books, you name it) do it too. The trope doesn't really bother me most of the time, FE is really the only time it does. But that's mostly because of the marketing efforts. Are there some ways of making this trope interesting besides simply you know, making them NOT look nine years old? I'm putting my own spin on it with my Kitsune race. It's a genetic trait more than a mythological connection to some life force. At some point their internal clock just stops. However, they stop 'aging' all together. Meiji stopped aging in her mid twenties, and she still has most of her flaws. She shows signs of maturity and rational decision making when she puts her mind to it. Otherwise she's behaving like your average 23 year old with her personality might act.
Just talking general behaviors and dynamics this time lol I'm looking for interesting ideas that don't rely on sexualization of a character. (which sadly Fire Emblem does, like a LOT) I don't mind the trope, but I do really wish they'd stop making them 9 year olds (sometimes younger), that's really the only gripe I have with it. Monster hunter utilizes this with the Wyverians, but they have all different age groups represented by it.
Are we talking about visual novels and games? Isn't writing for this media related to a lot of different factors like art, programming and so on. Did the writer know about how the dragon girl looked before he wrote the story or after. Did he change it? There are so many unknowns here. Which is why I don't know if the discussion is that easy. Btw. you must also take into consideration where the people who wrote the script come from and when it was written. Not every society has the same standards and while I agree with you to some degree because children should never be sexualised, I think we should take all these factors into consideration.
Most Fire Emblem games are written In-house by Intelligent Systems studio, I don't know the process they go through their character design. I'd like to assume that character appearance is decided before the marketing strategy is. Even in japan the legal age is 16 I think, but most often when this trope is involved the character looks 10-13. Tiki is the only example of one of them being older looking but even then she's still a child. It's a tricky thing to try to put your own spin on, which is why I at least make my uber aged characters you know, at minimum legal age. It would be very strange tactic to decide what a character looks like after writing the story.
I don't think the design comes after the story. However I still mentioned it because I wanted to point out that there's simply a lack of insight into all this. Honestly I think the answer is simple: This trope exists because it sells. There are obviously people who are into it. Still I think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. I honestly dislike this trope but I always try remind to see things from a different perspective. Also I don't think age of consent is a good way to judge. I'm German and our age of consent is 14 (or 16 if you want to sleep with someone older than 21) and yet I feel extremely uncomfortable with this. I'm pretty sure most Germans would be. This is a whole different topic but I think, and this a very subjective theory, that this trope sells to frustrated people with confidence issues. It sells because it gives them confidence, caring for someone who looks like they need it. Especially in prude (for a lack of a better word) countries that do not normalise sexuality people tend to get frustrated because they have to hide a part of themselves. I'm not saying we need to go overboard but I think denying part of yourself is really unhealthy and leads these kind of issues. Anyway it's just my theory.
Usually, it's "she looks like she's 9, but she's really 900 so when she's having sex... don't be mad." Yeah, I don't buy that at all.
I'll dissent. Look up neoteny. And it's worth considering how the fiction is approached, and by whom... For me, cute loli girls with big tiddies in Fire Emblem or whatever are just that: not real. Generally making them a human form of some monster, like a dragon, is rather humorous absurdism than anything for me to get bothered about. Even if they made the characters *look* 18 (which would be according to western standards of sexual conduct, by the way), they still hardly could be said to resemble actual females anyway except in a low-resolution sense. They're all simulucrum. As the writer who has to spend the time developing the characters and writing the entire story and trying to be entertaining or else you're out of a job, and/or the artist who has to design them, it's probably a practical decision to make characters attractive. Especially since it won't catch as much attention if it isn't visually appealing in a market that is significantly driven by visual appeal. It's just basic understandable human psychology when you look at the target audience of magpies. If I could play a game in which its characters are attractive (not even necessarily sexually), versus a game in which time is wasted making them as ugly as possible, assuming all else is equal I'll probably play the nicer looking game. That way when I sink hundreds of hours into it, I'll have the added bonus of having nice fictional things to look at. There's exceptions of course, but I generally want nice things to look at, even if the value of those things are not determined in the slightest by their appearance. People do this with FOOD at the grocery store. That's how ingrained this has become. Anyway, your idea sounds great on paper OP. It could be interesting to have characters basically emotionally arrested at whatever point they stop aging. My question to you though, is how will you make that interesting beyond just being an inside joke for people who don't like this trope and want to see it subverted just for the sake of subverting it? Best of luck. EDIT: And another question. I don't know much about this world your building or this fictional fox race. Do they look like foxes? Are we going the Ahri from League of Legends trope-route; essentially a hot gal wearing a fox tail and fox ears? Are we going full-on Lilmothiit beastility type stuff from the Elder Scrolls universe? In seriousness, my other genuine question to you is: how much are you subverting this trope if your characters aren't human?
@Foxxx To answer your question, I'm not really subverting the trope beyond making them an age other than an underage character who the reader is supposed to find attractive. I'm also trying my best to make her attractive in ways beyond her appearance. Namely her personality. The kitsune I've created are magical beings, depending on the number of tails they have, their magic is increasingly more powerful. A Nine Tailed fox is extremely rare and my MC has but a single tail and can do some decent magic, but nothing godlike. Though the difference between a Kitsune with a single tail VS one with even two is like comparing a puddle to a lake. More than two tails and you start reaching ever increasing natural disaster dangers. A five tailed kitsune could probably level a continent if they wanted to, thankfully most kitsune aren't out and out evil, just mischievous troublemakers/tricksters. Biologically they have actual fox ears/tail sometimes more than one (as in born with them, not a costume) and can turn into/speak with foxes, this is a trait even their offspring would have even if the father was a human. Meiji isn't really 'hot' either, she's just an average/slightly athletic build(She kind of needs a lightweight build to be a thief anyway) she does have an explosive personality compared to a human. But part of that is cause she's lived so long. She can't really control her impulses (hence being a thief) and she's really quite derpy in spite of her talent. Her character growth will largely focus on her learning how to behave more like a human and gain understanding of human logic.
I think the trope of a 900 year old trapped in the body of a 9 year old isn't inherently bad. The problem is the writer themselves sexualising them so that they can make some of that weeb money. I've had some of my favourite mangas ruined by this crap so it does annoy me (mainly historys strongest disciple). I may not even start a series any more these days if they have this 'fan service' present. So the main thing is that there are a lot of ways to make them into this archetype without sexualising them. It's simple. Just don't sexualise them. I think a good example is in the movie Interview with a Vampire, there is a little girl and she can't grow old, she becomes aware that she should be more sexually awakened but she ends up acting like a brat the whole time. There is minimal sexualisation (I can't say there isn't some undertones but never depictions and it's mostly about her pining to become a woman). Also spice and wolf had some good depictions of platonic relationship even if the kitsune in question was naked all the time. I don't fault the nakedness in that, because it only makes sense for a metamorphing God to be naked no?
The reason the trope exists is because it appeals to a certain demographic in Japan, which is whom anime and manga is primarily aimed at. If you don't like it, it's very simple. Don't watch it, don't read it.
Hey, don't exclude those of us living outside Japan. --- @naruzeldamaster Overall I like it! I've read a little bit about Inari and foxes in Japanese mythology, so as long as you've done your homework there so you can implement some of that well, it sounds like you've got a good idea on your hands. "this is a trait even their offspring would have even if the father was a human." Careful though. There are people who hate this "degenerate" trope as well, treating it the same as cat maid cafes: that is, with contempt. If you've seen some of the, uhhh, disapproving comments from people about Wolf Children (the anime film), or A Whisker Away, then you already understand what I'm on about lol.
I don't - but the primary audience that anime makers are generally concerned about are the Japanese ones (except perhaps those sponsored by Amazon or Netflix). Most anime is an adaption of manga, which will target Japanese readers - international popularity is a side-effect.
Yup. The medium's days are numbered, I fear. It will succumb to the west's moral colonialism and cultural appropriation. Or "trope subversion" and "localization" or whatever newspeak is being used to mean the same thing. One might argue that this won't happen. But if we're talking *money*, and *audience* size, the Japanese audience must be numerically dwarfed 5 or 6 to 1, no? So therefore even Japanese creators and the industry will change to appeal to western sensibilities because $$$. With nothing implied, I make the observation that some of the other opinions being expressed in this thread are pudding-proof of what I'm talking about. In fact, it is the very reason this thread exists, per the OP. Of course, I've shown that I respect their artistic decision and desire to try and subvert the trope (scientific facts of neoteny aside). It sounds like they'll do well. Just my hot-take critique of capitalism in which money is god over artistic integrity. Of course, it is possible, and I hope this is the case, that the Japanese are wise enough to not sell their culture and their nation's soul for something not even backed by gold. They've resisted China's cultural advances in this irl game of Civ 5 for hundreds of years successfully, so maybe they won't catch the west's variant either.
Japan is relatively xenophobic and immigration, while up recently, doesn't match other countries that are developed and have as high a population as Japan. I.e. France, Germany, UK, us, au. Plus they have pretty high cultural differences with the West. I think there maybe some overlap, Japan will remain pretty unique for the foreseeable future imo.
Ah yes - but amongst the biggest consumers of anime are other east and south-east Asian nations, where attitudes are not the same as in the West, and that constitutes a rather large audience.
In Octavia Butler’s book Fledgling, the mc looks like a ten-year old human girl but is not human. She has sex with an adult human male. It is definitely something people comment on when talking about the novel.
The whole crux of the second half of the story (in which the daughter is the MC) is getting the humans and Kitsune to co-exist. So I kind of wanted a good MC for that half of the story, having her be half human is part of the daughter's character growth. I don't think the character growth would be as impactful if she was just 'a normal human with magical powers' after all she can't be forced to adapt to living with regular humans if she just looks like a normal one on the surface. Although most non japanese adults/kids her age just think she's wearing a costume. She literally has to show that she can wag her tail and move the ears to prove they're real even to people who believe the kitsune exist. Obviously there'd be some panic in the world after finding out that even one Japanese myth had some truth to it (Most Kitsune speak Japanese natively), what if there were other more dangerous myths that were true? Japan has scathes of fae folk/demons/spirits that you certainly wouldn't want to encounter. I imagine the government would be a touch paranoid about crossbreeding too, and the existence of magic to begin with. Mainly because a dedicated enough Kitsune with even one tail can slow time to a crawl, only in a small radius around them but still. I'm not too worried about a particular group of people disapproving of this or that feature of a character. I'm not trying to appeal to that market (my aim is toward a general audience) heck for the most part I haven't really focused on Meiji's figure in the character description, and I don't plan to do that with their daughter either.
The premise of your world is very intriguing, and you've clearly given it a lot of thought and love! I'm curious why you specified non-Japanese... in the story, is Japan and its people accepting and knowledgeable about these Kitsune? In my experience, there tends to be a lot of overlap in terms of those who disapprove of loli dragons, and those who disapprove of fox-girls / "animorphs", both being viewed as degenerate. The reason why I am making such a point about this, is that I do not know you personally or what you have or haven't studied in regards to this, but in Japanese mythology the foxes being wives and lovers (see: sex) featured just as prominently as them being tricksters. Throughout history the perception and depiction of foxes has changed in Japan, of course. And in respect to said culture, does Inari, the Shinto kami, have a role in this? I think Inari was like a god of good harvests or something, I can't remember at the moment. But I do know that kitsune were directly related. Also, are you aware of きつねつき, and does it feature in your world and characters at all?
It's not really a plot relevant reason, not majorly anyhow. in the first half of the story Meiji saves a mother and daughter's life from a car-related incident. I was thinking of making her Japanese, because even in modern Japan they still believe in their spirits and such. They thank the magical kitsune lady for the rescue and don't really return until later. Well the mother doesn't anyway, thinking of using the daughter in the second half of the book. I mostly mentioned it cause the story takes place in the US and other non Japanese countries. And that's partly because I think most rational/spiritual people in Japan would go 'Oh, a real live Kitsune, neat' where as westerners and other non-japanese folk would need more proof to believe her. I'm actually trying really hard to not have too many major characters in the story, as I tend to get carried away with number of "important" characters haha. Counting both halves of the story I think there's like, 7 major characters? The story itself is also smaller in scale compared to what I normally try to write. The conflicts are smaller scale/ more down to earth too.
Monogatari is my favorite series, so as one might expect, I have no real issues with the whole 500 year old vampire in a 5 year old body, nekomimi, brother-sister-toothbrush stuff. Of course, that could be because of how postmodern and self-aware the show actually is. As you alluded with the word "usually", for me it is more about how it is executed and / or why, rather than the sheer presence of it. @naruzeldamaster 's story could be full of kitsunemimi and normal humans getting it on with fox people and it wouldn't necessarily bother me. I just thought it was a bit odd that the loli dragon business would be the OP's inspiration for embarking on a mission to somehow subvert that trope through... the animorph trope. Because to many people (at least, outside the anime realm it would seem) that's just trading one sexual perversion for another; *even if*, as the OP states, the MC won't be treated that way in their story. Just the sheer existence of these Kitsune characters begs the question. And knowing human nature, I think it would actually be more weird for nobody to respond in at least a sexually curious way *in the story*. Anybody remember the crazy dude who died from trying to have sex with a horse? No, just me?
