Drawing A Veil..

See Madhoca - I have had every single argument you have made levelled at me over religious clothing I chose to wea. I have been told, it is uncomfortable, freaky, weird etc. Mine was not uncomfortable, the restrictions it placed on my life were reassuring not restrictive. Other people struggled with the idea that I would choose to wear it. The headcovering when I pray is to me religious clothing whilst not required by any belief I adhere too it helps with concentration. I don't know any other Mormon women that cover their heads to pray, it is MY expression of MY belief. Most tell me it is something I shouldn't be doing probably think it is why I went astray lol too many other influences.

My friend chose to wear a Burkha later on, following her marriage. I wore one with her for a week when she first put it on so she didn't have to go out alone with it the first time. Admittedly it was winter so didn't feel uncomfortable, being a total slob I quite liked it - the ability to fling something over me that covered everything I found very freeing, I also enjoy the meditative peace when walking round. She had 'rebelled' at uni and for her it felt like something that took her back, allowed her breathing space, time to think. At that time she didn't know what flavour of Muslim she was going to end up just knew she needed to go back. They were unable to have children it was never an issue.

My other friend does, because her Mum does and she couldn't imagine not - no compulsion her parents actually suggested she didn't do it, but her Mum and Gran are great ladies and she wanted to be like her. Her decision was cultural my other friend's was entirely spiritual it was something she felt compelled to do.

See I wouldn't mind for me a Burkha is not in itself a sign of repression, it is the people that turn it into that. Just like the religious clothing Mormons wear can and have been turned into just that - I know husbands in my own faith who are just as controlling over them. If my children were taught from a young age by someone in a Burkha they wouldn't have the fear of it later.

 

Have you noticed how many of the lawsuits brought about by women because they can't e.g. wear burkhas to college etc are from those who have fairly recently converted but are strangely ill-informed about Islam?

"...the restrictions it placed on my life were reassuring not restrictive."

I have no wish to offend you, or be patronising. It sounds like you've heard it all, anyway! However, I find your comment above quite worrying. There are enough difficulties and restrictions in our lives without fabricating extra ones, imo. Take care, anyway.

 

It’s curious how as far as I can tell, here it is a Muslim (mandhoca) and someone (myself) who has lived some years in a self proclaimed 100% Muslim country, who both support the French on their Burka ban, while the people here who live outside a Muslim society lament the loss of Muslim rights...the world isn't all so lovely that total freedom serves the best interests of everyone -- if you think that is the case, you live in fantasy land...

Where I lived and worked, most women wore an optional colorful headscarf, which actually I found really lovely!
The majority of women didn’t wear their scarf all the time, but others had taken vows, or at least resolved (not 100% clear on how it worked) to never take off their veil in public. This was not so lovely...

I was close friends with a few young women who took this vow…and that was the end of our friendship. I was shocked and saddened to see how they suddenly transformed from bright, jovial, outgoing, young women, to closeted shells who no longer evern aknowledged me (and we’re not even talking a complete cover-up here…)

sure I can’t base the entire Muslim covering-up experience on these few cases I witnessed, but for the sake of those women, if I had of had the chance to legislate against the destruction of their personality, I’d have voted in favor of any ban.

I really dont think they were happier to be repressed in this manner...and I bet a lot of women who claim to have freely chosen to put on the veil, have been pressured into it by their peers, so how free is their choice really?

If one woman who is unwillingly pressured into wearing the veil is saved from such ignition by French legislation, then I say boo-hoo to the hundred women who complain that they can’t wear the veil in public out of free choice…if they don’t appreciate that law they object to is serving to protect numerous young women in their community, and if they put their demand of rights to wear the veil over the need to protect the vunrable, well, quite frankly, I really dont care how much they complain over a loss or rights...

 

Actually the restrictions have often removed a lot of the difficulties and restrictions in my life. Modesty and chastity are something I valued and found important in my teen years, it gave me good solid healthy relationships with boys, removed a lot of the stress of relationships my friends at university had. With clothes what you are used to is comfortable even now I am not Mormon not sure I would feel comfortable in wearing shorter skirts or having my shoulders exposed. Can only imagine how uncomfortable it would be for a person who has worn a Burkha all their life to uncover when they haven't chosen to. I am entirely comfortable with nudity etc doesn't bother me.

I don't think not smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol etc did me any harm at all. I do drink wine now but not sure I am liking it - not used to being drunk, it actually helped with confidence at parties and in groups of strange people. I happily went to pubs with friends at uni - amazing how many actually stopped drinking to keep me company lol

My garments were not difficult to wear - it was a sense of peace in the morning. Praying, reading scriptures was a nice way to start the day.

What many people saw as restrictions in my life I saw as a freedom. And many I keep up with now. The Muslim women I know are of the same view about their headcoverings, the two I know with the Burkha feel that way.

And maybe that is the issue in the UK we have the freedom that they have chosen it - I like have my rights to worship my way I would be hypocritical to say the same to another. I am not about to tell someone who tells me Burkhas increase their spirituality that it doesn't.

This may well be the difference Mid-West American Mormons from long standing families can sometimes approach their faith in a very different way to a Mormon in the UK who is first generation. It is much more likely to find a 'cultural' Mormon in Utah than in Scotland. Someone in Utah will face the same pressure to be the best Mormon they can be that the rest of us face not to be. The same will be the same for Muslims in a country where the religion is the major one or an area of the UK where Islam is dominant the choice is in many way removed it becomes a restriction. For those that choose away from that the choice is spiritual and the decision is one that introduces comfort etc

 

"...the restrictions it placed on my life were reassuring not restrictive"
What did you need to be reassuried about? If you need a cruch, something is broken...

oh, you posted same time as me - will read your response above!

 

You are right. To be honest, the only reason I don't agree with it is I don't really want some kind of backlash in my own country. I live in a very racist, and culturally divided area. I don't want a brick through my window, which has happened to people I know just because they are non-Muslim.

 

I didn't need a crutch nothing was desperatly broken in my life - it wasn't going the best at the time of my baptism but I am not a person to find life unreasonably difficult. I have a tradtional British stiff upper lip, you pick yourself up dust yourself down and continue. For me it as simple as I believe in God.

I did however appreciate what others saw as restrictions and the freedom/comfort/extra strength it provided. I still find power and strength in meditation and prayer. For which I do cover my head and sometimes veil my face simply to remove distractions and increase the power of the experience. It provides me with peace and sets me up for the day.

 

I didn't need a crutch nothing was desperatly broken in my life
Good for you..you explained it as well as I can comprehend at this hour…

But you must recognize that while some women ‘freely’ choose to wear the veil, others are pressured into it, in varying degrees--some if only though the treat of being ostracized by their community. For them, a ban on the burka would be welcome layer of protection, don’t you think?

Would you abandon the vulnerable women within French Muslim society in order to preserve the rights of other women to ‘freely’ choose?

 

Why couldn't there have simply been an adaption to the current domestic abuse legislation or whatever the French equivlent is - forcing a woman to wear a Burkha iillegal. That would have my support. I have throughout this argued against force on either side of the debate.

Why do you think it is right to abandon the women in French society who have chosen to wear a garment for either cultural or spiritual reasons ?

The English banned the Scots from speaking their own language and wearing tartan - that was cultural not religious. Not right either.

EDIT: This for me if the legislation came in in Scotland would be as much about my rights to freedom of dress as it is of the Muslim women.

 

And they banned us from playing Golf. Go figure.

 

yep lol I am not sure whether it matters why someone chooses to wear a Burkha. It doesn't have be religious. I did contemplate keeping one around for bad hair days and days I wasn't in the mood for speaking to people in the street after the week I wore it.

My wearing of it was in no way spiritual it was in support of a friend - but I did not find it that uncomfortable. There was a certain peace in not being recognised unless I wanted to be. People were also a lot less likely to walk into me.

With the restriction - as I didn't have the religious compulsion also came a certain freedom. Not sure why if I had decided to keep it and wear it for entirely non spiritual reasons I should have the choice to do so.

 

This has to be my final post before bedtime.

The French are not randomly or hysterically attacking women with this ban. I submit they have thought very long and hard on this, and weighed up how severe the threat is to their freedom and the 'laicism' which is an important cornerstone to the constitution of the French nation.

As to the evil English banning the tartan etc...hmm...well, the English were imposing themselves on a subject nation, trying to keep them subdued. Now, this is the situation: a secular republic peacefully minding its own business and then being threatened by outsiders, which (argueably) could destroy important aspects of that country's culture. By your own token, you should be supporting the French.

Well, Allah rahatlık versin (a traditional saying: 'God keep you comfortable', used before going to bed, in case Cog gets hot under the collar...)

 

Why couldn't there have simply been an adaption to the current domestic abuse legislation or whatever the French equivlent is - forcing a woman to wear a Burkha iillegal. That would have my support. I have throughout this argued against force on either side of the debate.

Who would police that and how? Do you really think a young Muslim lady who is being pressured into wearing the Burka by her family and community is really going to go the police and complain? Wouldn’t that have terribly negative implications for her?

Why do you think it is right to abandon the women in French society who have chosen to wear a garment for either cultural or spiritual reasons ?
The question of freedom for some over the protection of others, it is a moral dilemma, and as I wore earlier, as such, I don’t think there is an absolute right or wrong to it…it comes down to personal choice. And personally, as I also wrote earlier, if one woman who is unwillingly pressured into wearing the veil is saved from such ignition by French legislation, then I say boo-hoo to the hundred women who complain that they can’t wear the veil in public out of free choice…the reason why that is my preference is probably because I’ve seen how covering-up can destroy a personality, and I feel more concern for the protection of vunrable young women, than I feel for the protection of a culture and spiritual ideology that puts such demands on them.

And what about you, why do you put the rights of women to wear the Burka over the rights of women to be protected from being pressured into wearing it?

 

I find it interesting that in its attempts to be secular in its legislation the French restrict the religious choices of its citizens - in its attempts to stay out it often becomes fully involved.

We can't build an LDS Temple in France because of various legal issues. The French LDS travel to Germany or the UK.

I did not however realise that the all the Muslims who wear Burkhas in France were foreign to the country - that may perhaps change my view. If they are not foreign to the country then surely they are not outsiders ?

The French can do what the French choose I guess but I would not welcome the curbing in the UK.

 

You really think a young woman being forced to wear a Burkha is facing that as her only restriction ? If that is the only restriction is it much different from a father or mother refusing to let their daughter dress in a short skirt or wear makeup ?

Convince me that it actually improves life for the woman that is forced to wear the Burkha - show me how removing it removes her from a life of general force and compulsion ? Show me for sure that it won't force greater restrictions on these women ? I have yet to be convinced it improves the abused woman's life to any great extent. I don't know about France but in the UK there are ways a woman can escape abuse but the decision has to be hers. Women already have the right not to be abused in legislation.

Where I remain completely unconvinced is that there will a huge change for the better in the quality of life of the person forced to wear a Burkha and that their life will magically become free and easy.

 

whoops! double post

 

I find it interesting that in its attempts to be secular in its legislation the French restrict the religious choices of its citizens - in its attempts to stay out it often becomes fully involved.
As I keep saying, these sorts of issues throw up numerous ironies…but I suppose it’s no less odd than the USA who puts ‘In God We Trust’ on their currency and thus speaks falsely on behalf of its citizens who do not trust in god.

I did not however realize that the all the Muslims who wear Burkhas in France were foreign to the country - that may perhaps change my view.
As I said earlier, don’t countries have the right to decide what is appropriate within their society? Why should they be obliged to accommodate all cultural behavior that they deem to be foreign and inappropriate?

You really think a young woman being forced to wear a Burkha is facing that as her only restriction ?
Where did I say that is her only restriction? If she is under other repressive restrictions, I’d be all for the removal of those restrictions too…it would be a bit silly if you were meaning to imply that because a mulism women is under numerous restrictions the removal of one restriction is worthless.

is it much different from a father or mother refusing to let their daughter dress in a short skirt or wear makeup ?
Yes, its very different from that. From what I gather, the Burka tends to be a far more permanent and physiologically transforming in comparison to lipstick.
.
Convince me that it actually improves life for the woman that is forced to wear the Burkha - show me how removing it removes her from a life of general force and compulsion ? Show me for sure that it won't force greater restrictions on these women ?
I could equally say, Convince me that it actually does not improve life for a woman that is forced to wear the Burkha (to be protected from not having to wear it)- show me how removing it does not somewhat relieve her from some force and compulsion ? Show me for sure that it will not reduce some restrictions on these women ?

So your argument against protecting vulnerable Muslim women is that you feel it may not be productive, but how do you know that it won't be productive, and what then would you do for these women instead? Nothing?

I don't know about France but in the UK there are ways a woman can escape abuse but the decision has to be hers. Sure, but Law can make it easier or harder for her to do that…

in the end, the most effective way to protect these women is though transformation of the abusive culture around them..that will take time, and will come in slow degrees. How would you begin that process, and what measures would you take along the way? I think banning the Burka would be one small measure in the process…sure it might not instantly improve the life of all vulnerable Muslim women-but are you seriously arguing that protecting vunrable women against forcibly being made to wear the Burka would not be welcomed by them?

 

I don't actually feel a huge urge to convince you of anything both of us have views shaped by the cultures and lives we have been exposed to. By the views of the people around us, etc

I personally feel a stronger moves towards removing abuse from within the Muslim communities themselves will have a greater impact - top down forced legislation is very rarely as effective as when the change comes from the bottom up.

 

I am shutting this down, now.