Drug Legalization: Does Anyone Else Agree?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Epsilon, Jul 27, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    LuleƄ, Sweden
    In my eyes this shouldn't be a moral issue. No more then reducing traffic accidents should be. Minimising the damage should be based on experience and research. What works, not what people think should work or what they think people deserve etc.

    Most of the research points to that moving toward decriminalization (not exactly the same as legalisation) and using more resources for care, prevention and rehabilitation is more effective compared to the policy many western contrives have today to minimize damage.

    What about Portugal then? Got border issues, cant control the inflow of drugs, have a mix of big, middle-sized and small cities as well as rural areas etc. making it a better comparison to the US. Organized crime is a present problem and so on.

    They did not just decriminalize pot but possessive of all drugs. And it worked.

    Google "drugs Portugal" and you will fins a well balanced article on the subject published 26 Apr 2009 by a major newspaper.
     
  2. Zieki

    Zieki New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    USA
    I think the legalisation of ALL drugs is going to be nearly impossible to push for, especially in the US. However, drugs like marijuana, which is no more dangerous than alcohol or tobacco (and may be less dangerous) should be legalized based on no more than economic benefit for the country as a whole, regardless of questions of morality. As it stands now, marijuana users (in some cases) and distributers go to jail and waste tax payers money, while crowding already over-crowded jails. Legalizing, taxing, and regulating marijuana would not only make it safer to buy and sell, but would increase government revenue. California's 'medical marijuana' industry took in about $2 billion last year generating $100 million in state sales tax.

    I don't see there being a black market for marijuana, at least not in the long run. There will be a sin tax, obviously, but it shouldn't be any higher than tobacco products - and you don't see a black market for cigarettes out there. The higher price, in the short run, could lead to small black market dealings but in the long run and for the majority of the population, the safer, more reliable, legalized substance will be much preferred. And as for quality - government issued marijuana is quite good.
     
  3. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    I disagree with the use of drugs. I find it personally morally reprehensible and I do no drugs, legal or otherwise. Obviously, my bipolar meds are the exception ;)

    However, I do not plan on enforcing my own moral code over the rest of the population. If people wish to legalize drugs, then let them do so. I do know however, that I do not wish to associate with those who do drugs. I don't hang around drunks or smokers, nor do I hang around with people smoking pot or whatever. It's just not what I do.

    But, I must reiterate, my moral code =/= law. If people want to smoke, let them. Just make sure it is regulated and there are reasonable laws surrounding it; for example, no operating automobiles while intoxicated by ANY substance.
     
  4. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,834
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    I find it odd that people use the argument that marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol and cigarettes to say that marijuana should be legalised. Personally, it makes me more inclined to want to ban alcohol and cigarettes...
     
  5. ChimmyBear

    ChimmyBear Writing for the love of it. Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    Florida
    I agree with you, Banzai. Personally, I think we need to be objective in our point of view by looking beyond our own interests. :)
     
  6. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    I agree with this. However if people wish to, in my opinion, poison themselves, it is no business of mine unless it endangers me in someway. Therefore, I would restrict smoking pot in ways similar to how smoking is restricted: not in the "general" public due to second-hand smoke but rather in designated areas. And as I said before, people who drive or otherwise do things that could be dangerous while intoxicated should be prosecuted no matter what is intoxicating them.
     
  7. Zieki

    Zieki New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    USA

    The problem then is your illegalizing more and more substances, taking away more and more personal freedoms, tax dollars, and putting more and more people in jail. Plus you're creating more forums for black markets and criminal activities (more violence, etc.). I understand governments trying to protect citizens but banning substances that - could be - dangerous if used improperly is silly. Because these substances can be used properly and responsibly by many, many people.

    The main reason I brought up that marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes is the fact that currently, in the US, marijuana is listed, Federally, as a Schedule I Controlled Substance. A Schedule I Controlled Substance is a substance that: 1) has a high potential for abuse, 2) has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the US, and 3) has a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug. Other Schedule I substances include heroin and extacy while cocaine is listed as a Schedule II Controlled Substance (less restrictive).

    Alcohol, cigarettes, and marijuana can all be dangerous - as can driving or eating red meat. The point is that responsible people should be able to decide.
     
  8. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,834
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    But people aren't responsible. And their irresponsibility harms others. It's about balancing rights, and it isn't as simple as absolute freedom. Humanity as a species can't deal with absolute freedom; we're too selfish.
     
  9. jacklondonsghost

    jacklondonsghost New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,039
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    My two cents: I think it is incredibly ridiculous that it would be ten times easier for me to buy pot than it would be for me to get a sixer of beer at my age. I think something is seriously off with that.

    I'm not a fan of weed. I've had several friends ruin their lives with it. My brain is too messed up for it to do anything to me but make me incredibly paranoid and anxious. It always felt like a big waste of time and money to me and I'd rather just have a strong cigar and a beer and call it a day.

    I'm not sure where I stand on legalization. I frankly can't stand the stuff but I don't think that gives me the right to deny other people the use of it, since it doesn't do much more harm than alcohol in my eyes.
     
  10. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    Perhaps this is my experience as a recent high school graduate speaking but everyone I know who uses marijuana is not at all responsible. And when they use marijuana, they become even less responsible. They become lethargic, apathetic and even reckless (driving while intoxicated, etc.) One could argue that we should discourage such irresponsible behavior.

    And the only adult I know who regularly smokes marijuana is, to put it frankly, a dumbass. An abusive dumbass. To everyone who blithely stated "marijuana is never seen in domestic abuse," well, I have a story for you. This man most definitely physically and emotionally abused his girlfriend and girlfriend's children. He also left his pot "stash" out around a 2-year old child. The child, not knowing what it was, ate the marijuana and had to be hospitalized.

    So, yes, pot is bad.
     
  11. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Amen, brother.

    I am actually ambivalent to the idea of the use of drugs, but I am more than sure as to my feelings about those who show no control or wish to control their use.

    I don't want it around me.

    As much as I don't want to suffer an abusive alcoholic, neither do I wish to suffer a motor head, tweakster, or any other kind of individual who has crossed the line into what is no longer under his/her control.

    It's not a matter of protecting people from their own bad choices; it's a matter of protecting me and mine from the bad choices of others.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,834
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Exactly, Wrey. As usual, we seem to be on the same wavelength.
     
  13. Mantha Hendrix

    Mantha Hendrix New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Northern Ireland... the place I've taken for grant
    I agree with Banzai as well.

    Also, even if they are legalized, there'll still be an age limit. So, underage people will still use them... If we're still using the "act tough" logic.

    Then the addiction will kick in...

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Cannabis's stance as a gateway drug.
     
  14. Zieki

    Zieki New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    USA

    It may be an over statement to say that all people, in general, are not responsible but I'll agree with you in that many people are not responsible, though many others are. I think the right way to approach this is not by simply banning a substance that could do harm but by educating and teaching people responsibility when it comes to these substances.

    I'll use an example that may not be the best, but works in the context. I'm a college student in the US. Drinking is, and will continue to be, a huge "problem" at a college level because we (not me but we in general) don't know how to drink responsibly. I went abroad last semester to Europe. Europeans, who have been drinking for four, five, however many years with their parents, learning what it was to drink like an adult were MUCH more responsible in general. Of course, there were Europeans who couldn't handle themselves and Americans who could, but there was definitely a correlation. Teaching responsibility is a much better solution than simply making something illegal because people may be irresponsible. It may be harder, yes, but better in the long run.

    I understand, and agree, that absolute freedom is out of the question. But it's a matter of teaching people responsibility and allowing people some freedom rather than hiding beyond the excuse that people are irresponsible. Some people don't drive responsibly - should we not allow anyone to drive? Some people don't use prescription pain killers responsibly - should I have to suffer through pain even though I can use them responsibly? Etc.


    There will certainly be an age limit (and there should be) and underage people will still use them (like they drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes) but you've got a MUCH higher chance of getting addicted to cigarettes than you ever do of marijuana.

    You cannot simply legalize marijuana (or drugs in general) but you must set out to educate and teach responsibility - something that I think has not been done well in the past with alcohol, at least here in the US.

    I feel like right now, in our "alcohol awareness" classes we're about at that time when people used to teach "abstinence only" sexual education. It's idealistic to think that kids will actually follow this mantra. You can say don't drink all you want but kids are going to drink. You can say don't have sex or don't do drugs but people are going to do it. Instead, we need to teach ways to have sex, drink - and do drugs - responsibly. Just some thoughts.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    I think there's good evidence that marijuana is more dangerous.

    That said, I still favor legalization. If you are inclined to ban everything that can be harmful to a person, then I think you're being too paternalistic. Just because someone can harm themselves with something isn't a sufficient justification to take away their freedom to decide. If the direct harm from the activity is only to themselves, then they should be free to do it, despite the fact that it is a bad idea.
     
  16. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,834
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Personally, I do think it's more harmful, but I know that's highly disputed.

    The problem that I'm trying to point out is that direct harm to the individual is never the only consequence. It might be that they harm someone directly under the influence (starting a fight, mugging someone, hitting someone in a vehicle), or just the emotional damage to family and friends, and just the people around generally. I've never known a drug addict who only caused harm to themselves.
     
  17. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    This is one of our greatest evolutionary defects.

    The way I see it; you can either give someone unlimited rights or no rights at all. Whichever you choose, nothing good will ever come of either.

    Smuggling, and piracy, are all aspects of the so-called War on Drugs, and history has shown many many times (and so has Hollywood with films like Scarface) that a war on organised crime is as near to pointless as you can get. You can put a dent in a large criminal organisation, though how big or small this dent is depends mostly on luck, but itā€™s almost impossible to flat-out combat the problem.

    If you legalise it does take out the organised crime elements, but then we will suffer the same problems as we have with tobacco, and keeping them out of the hands of the youth.
     
  18. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    It's not an easy concept to wrap one's head around. My own ambivalence has made me pop into this thread three or four times with conflicting ideas as to what I wish to post.

    One thing I can tell you is what I have seen in the neighborhood where my boyfriend grew up, La Barriada Morales in Caguas, Puerto Rico. In Puerto Rico a barriada is what they call a favela in Brazil. Houses all on top of one another all crazy style. Every once in a while they collapse because there is no kind of code at all in the building. A lot of poverty and drug use. The most famous barriada in Puerto Rico is La Perla in San Juan.

    I once went with William to his parent's house and there was an odd line of people on one side of the street and I asked William what it was about. He said, "That's the bichote (drug dealer) giving out free samples of heroine."

    It was true! And he said it like, "Oh, that's the mail man delivering mail."

    I was shocked. Shocked because William was immune to what he was seeing. It didn't faze him in the least. It's part of every day life in the barriada with kids playing not five feet away. I don't think that a sight like that should be something that a person files away into the Whatever, no big deal list.
     
  19. untalented311

    untalented311 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    ohio
    I'm all for the legalization of marijuana, but I'm ninety nine percent positive, I could get a prescription of it if I lived in california. I found out yesterday that canabidiol is used to treat schizophrenia....now i want to move to california lol!
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    That's a slippery slope. Almost every action one takes has a potential to cause indirect harm to others and to society. Eating habits, driving (sober), playing sports. If you don't eat right, you could die young and cause pain and grief to loved ones, and also increase the cost of health care to society. Let's ban all driving that isn't necessary (i.e. to work, school, or to get food). Driving presents a risk of accident even when sober, and that can harm others, as well as cause emotional damage to children when they lose a parent. Sports are purely optional activities in life and represent a risk of injury.

    No...you can't just micro-manage every aspect of a person's life in a free society, no matter how much some people would like to do so. As free societies, we understand that there are societal costs associated with freedoms, and we bear them. I prefer to draw the line at direct harm to others. If you drive recklessly and present a direct threat to other, that should be addressed by the law. If you don't want to wear your seat belt, thereby increasing the risk of direct harm to yourself, then fine.

    Interestingly, marijuana also increases the risk of developing schizophrenia among long-terms users. At least, that was the result of a peer-reviewed study I saw a few months back.
     
  21. Sabreur

    Sabreur Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    I take issue with this. Sex is a natural act. And by natural I mean it is something that humans feel biologically inclined towards as a mean of procreation. Now, all sex can't be (and shouldn't be) for procreation and in some cases (homosexual couples for example) sex is never for procreation. There is nothing wrong with that. However, using birth control, a condom and all that other stuff is for your safety, your partner's safety and the safety of your potential child. In other words, learning to have sex responsibly is a necessity. Because sex is a necessity.

    Drugs are not a necessity for anything besides being an idiot. I fail to see the connection between the two.
     
  22. arron89

    arron89 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Auckland
    Emergency workers, courts and hospitals are already pushed to the breaking point in most major American cities, as well as many major centres around the world. Legalising a narcotic that will inevitably lead to an increase in accidents causing injury and death to self and others, as well as an increase in health problems in the user (as study after study has suggested will be the case in long term use) and well as potentially causing an increase in crime and an increase in use of Class A and B drugs will only put more strain on a system that is already working beyond its means. This extra cost will need to be picked up by the tax payer, and yes, if you tax marijuana that will contribute, but ultimately the cost of public health will increase, and so the cost to the public.
     
  23. Frost

    Frost Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2006
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Australia
    In Australia, a lot of low range drugs while technically "illegal" won't land you in prison like they do in other nations. For example, if you're caught with no more than 25 grams of MJ on you (the standard bag amount) then you won't get in trouble. The same goes for the possession of up to I think it is 6 ecstasy tablets. I'm sure there are a few other drugs that you won't necessarily get in trouble for. I think this is positive. Essentially, it criminalises the dealers and the drug rings but not necessarily the man who lives up the road who prefers to smoke weed than have a beer. I think any action in the direction of legalisation should be well planned and definitely not a sudden thing. I would support it, but it definitely needs to be done the right way.
     
  24. dogboon

    dogboon New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Medway, Kent, England
    Thats an interesting story Wreybees. Thanks for sharing.

    I think that drugs and prostitution should be legalised. It will never happen even though many powerful governors and judges in the US are lobbying for it. There is an indisputable case that cannabis (used responsibly) has healing properties. Cigarettes and alcohol develop heart diseases and kill more people statistically than any class A drugs. A heroine addict can go 'cold turkey' to get the addiction out of his system (on the most part), but an alcoholic cannot. Because for them, to suddenly stop the consumption of alcohol will suddenly boost the brain's activity, and literally kill them.

    The concept that we will never accept true freedom, as Banzai touched upon is very true, for we have a need to acquire addictions, which really acquire us, it could be said since we have no literal control over an addiction.
     
  25. Nobeler Than Lettuce

    Nobeler Than Lettuce New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Anytown USA
    Oh, so that's why I suffered that heart attack at the age of 19 when I tried to quit drinking cold turkey. Too bad my drug awareness classes never mentioned what the DTs were.

    I suppose as a habitual user of marijuana and a recovering alcoholic I should have more to say on this subject. I don't. I've never been caught. Stupid people get caught, people who smoke in their cars or bad mouth police. I mean we were pursued by two squad cars and a helicopter at the tender ages of 16-18 at deadly speeds through the desert. But hey, if that's what the police have to do to keep us from smoking marijuana, I guess that's what they have to do.

    The drug war has personally ruined my family's life, but I'll spare the details. Needless to say these are good people who now work in the medical field saving lives every day. Some of them still enjoy marijuana, which, fortunately, is legal in California.

    Why does this have to be such a black and white issue. Why can't we talk decriminalization? Absolutely legalization of anything, even marijuana could lead to horrible consequences. A stoned driver has no loss of awareness of motor-control at least, but a stoned drunk driver? That's double deadly.

    And with the Mexican cartel deathtoll reaching 2000 a already this year, with them literally taking control of local governments or keeping them in check by assassination, and with them being millionaires do you honestly think they'll just up and quit their jobs once drugs are legal? They'll want to continue that lifestyle, and the police hasn't stopped them yet.

    I mean I feel like I can't even enter this debate people are so uneducated on the topic. I'd love to argue before decriminalization that we reform the analogues act, and I can't ask the question about what we should do about drugs like 2ci, 2cb, 2ct7, the rave situation, or anything else I think we should be talking about. I know you guys like to wave the "drugs are bad" sentiment around, but there's a whole lot to consider besides that.

    I don't mean to sound like an ass. I just think this isn't a blanket issue.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice