1. Partridge

    Partridge Senior Member

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    eBook cover design - who do we use, who do we avoid?

    Discussion in 'Cover Design' started by Partridge, Mar 25, 2019.

    Hello everyone,

    My WIP is now in being edited by a professional, so in the meantime I'm looking at getting the cover designed.

    I'm planning on going with KDP, so it must also work as a hardcopy cover, so the spine will need doing too. I'll be going for a custom design.

    Who are you all using, who do you recommend, and who should I avoid?
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    What's your genre? A lot of cover designers have specialties.
     
  3. Partridge

    Partridge Senior Member

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    Hi BayView,

    My genre is mystery/black humor.
     
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  4. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    Do not, repeat . . . DO NOT use these talentless "Cover Artists" that prey on writers who don't know any better and somehow expect they'll get a fantastic piece of art for $100!

    I'm an artist, and better than 99% of the artists you'll find anywhere. I would not even entertain a commission under $3000. You've put your heart and soul into your story, why in the world would you pay a hack artist $100 to produce the cover that will grace your book for evermore?
    Find an artist that works in a similar genre as your story, the best you can find, and contact them. As far as spine copy and whatnot, that's up to you to do in Photoshop. A fine artist won't do those sort of things for you.

    Even I, as good an artist as I am, and doing the interior illustrations for my story have decided to have a favorite artist of mine do the cover. The title of my WIP is, A Rebellion of Swallows. The three 12-year-old protagonists, Rose, Mabel, and Adeline will be represented as three swallows flying under the blade of a guillotine. There is no artist on the planet who does swallows better than Dan Oakleaf (https://danoakleaf.com/workszoom/2262431). So I sent him an email and some sample chapters to read. As it happened, he and his wife, and daughter too, read the chapters and loved the story. Soon after I commissioned a painting from Dan and paid him half the amount in good faith. He's since sent me some watercolor sketches to get an idea of what I wanted, and will get to the finished oil painting when time permits.

    Do not use these "Cover Designers" who mostly produce shit work. Find a fine artist who produces fantastic, inspired work... and hit them up for your cover.

    Edit: Almost forgot... as important as the cover art is the typography.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I strongly recommend you don't spend thousands of dollars on your cover. If you want to commission art work, commission art work, but do it for the sake of the art, not to be a book cover.

    If you're treating self-publishing as a business, you need to keep an eye on your costs, and you need to made the decision that makes sense from a business standpoint, not one that satisfies some other desire.

    I don't know anyone writing your genre, but you can browse self-published books by authors in your genre that are selling well and check who does their covers (info should be in the front matter of the book, or do a reverse-image search for the cover, or contact the authors). You need a cover that will sell your book, not one that's a work of art in its own right.
     
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  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I'm with bayview on this - I strongly suspect that the post above hers is trolling - if it's not it's the worst advice on cover design I've ever seen (except for do it yourself in paint)

    The point of a cover is to sell the book - not to be fine art... and a designer should absolutely do the spine...(although they won't be able to do the exact detail until you know how many pages) mostly they'll do an indicative print version and an ebook version then tweak the print version once you've got a page length (and trim size)

    I'd suggest Stuart Bache of Books Covered (he does mostly thriller but has the skills to do most genres), however he is booked up until at least June.

    Fiona Jayde Media did nice work for Lew on the Eagle and the Dragon... but I don't know if she does the mystery/humour genre.

    In terms of costs Stuart charges about £400. I'd agree that you aren't going to get a good bespoke cover for £100 (although you can get good premades in that price point), but paying thousands is madness.

    Another good reason to use a cover designer rather than an artist is that good cover designers understand the market and what works for the genre. If you rely on your own artistic perception to conceptualise a vision of three swallows flying under the blade of a guillotine there is a very real risk that you'll wind up with a beautiful artistic picture that does nothing to sell your book and is totally wrong for the genre

    Also a good designer will design text placement and fonts etc as well as the art its self, so you don't wind up with a beautiful painting with some text plonked on to in photoshop.
     
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  7. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're trolling.

    Stuart Bache, and countless others are what us real artists consider to be "hacks". If this weren't the Digital Age these "artists" wouldn't survive. They can't produce traditional art, that is they can neither draw or paint and have never had any classical training.

    Who would you want to design the cover of your book, Stuart Bache or Ken Taylor? http://kentaylor.com.au/gig-posters/
     
  8. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    I found my Cover artist through a Facebook market group that specializes in Covers, and despite the elitism from Iain Sparrow, they do some really lovely work. The one who did mine did it for $200, $250 because I needed a second Character model done, and I am quite pleased with the world.

    if one can do wonderful work with digital media, then it shouldn't be snubbed. Though I did commission an illustrated because that is what I specifically wanted but there was plenty of talented artists who can make magic happen. Also, look up Cover designers online, premades are cheap, and even think a proper cover can cost from $200 to $500 depending on the artist.

    Not sure about the over $1k, I do agree with BV and BSM that it may be trolling, or at least I hope Iain Sparrow isn't' that much of an elitist.
     
  9. Oliver

    Oliver New Member

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  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Stuart Bache hands down - because he understands what sells books. He has previously worked with John Le Carre, Stephen King (including the iconic Cujo cover), and major self publishers like Mark Dawson. Stuart has never claimed to be an artist - he is a cover designer

    If I wanted a piece of fine art to put on my wall I'd commission an artist - if I wanted a book cover designed I'd commission a cover designer.

    In producing an effective book cover it is necessary to understand the market and what makes a book cover effective, it is not necessary to be able to draw, paint or to have had any classical training since book covers are created digitally not in pastel or oils.

    I suspect you know this, and that's what makes your posts trolling - posting deliberately bad advice in the hope of starting an argument
     
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  11. Partridge

    Partridge Senior Member

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    Thanks so much for your input, everybody. Some really helpful insights I can take away from this.

    I have no interest in creating a beautiful piece of artwork, or commissioning one. What I want can probably be achieved on photoshop in a couple of hours, but I want to leave it with a professional, because I want a polished end product made by somebody who (hopefully) knows what they are doing.
     
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  12. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

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    I will chime in and agree that $3,000 is excessive for a cover, especially when discussing someone just starting out in self-publishing. Advice above is to find cover artists/designers through surveying cover arts of successful books/authors in your genre. You can see what's working, and what is not, and get some leads on artists/cover designers.

    You'll have to spend some cash for quality work, but not in the thousands. And, of course, utilize a contract when hiring the cover artist/designer. It sets out professional expectations, rights to (use of the work) the work, and protects both parties involved.
     
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  13. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I once asked my publisher how much they pay to commission cover art, and they came back with somewhere in the neighborhood of $250-$300. I couldn't imagine paying more than that for a self-published book if that's the going rate (at least for my genre).
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That's on the low side of ball park for self publishing - I suspect publishers get a discount for repeat business which obviously an author alone doesn't attract. I actually do my own but that's not a route I recommend to anyone who doesn't have a design/image manipulation background (20 years plus with Photoshop and about 15 with indesign in my case)

    I'd suggest someone starting out use a premade good ones are in the $99-$149 area, if you have to have bespoke you are probably looking at circa $500 for a good proven designer... you can get lower than that on fiverr or 99 designs but the problem there is sorting the wheat from the chaff, some cheap options are good designers starting out, others produce work that looks like it was done by a chimp with a ball peen hammer
     
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  15. JackL

    JackL Member

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    I wanted an image of a tattoo drawn for exclusive merchandise rights (bookmarks, fridge magnets, roller banners etc). A cover artist quoted me £90. A commisioned artist quoted me £300. The cover designer has incredible talent with designing covers via stock images, yet when it comes to drawing and making it look like a real tattoo.... the skill just wasn't there, not for what I needed.

    I agree that comissioned artist's do charge more, and rightly so: they're starting from scratch with only pen and design pad. Cover artists have the images there already produced, and their talent comes with manipulation, but it's manipulation of existing images.

    My publisher comissioned a Russian artist to have one of my covers drawn. I don't know how much they paid, so I can't say what cost is like on that score. I'm used to £150-300 for covers in general (digital cover design, including paperback wraps).

    To be honest, when done well, I love both approaches to cover design.
     
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  16. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks, @big soft moose, for the recommendation for www.fionajaydemedia.com. I suggest you contact her to see if she does humor/mystery, I suspect she does. She has also done both my wife's covers, Parham's Mill and Ruby, take a look. Price wise, you will find her extremely reasonable, but I don't want to quote her price. You get a great product at a very reasonable price. She handles all the book layouts for you. You just need to provide her your title, name, blurb, bio and anything else for the back. Also page count and paper type, and intended target (KDP/Ingram) She will provide covers for Kindles, paperback via a variety of different outlets besides the one you specified, and graphics for website/facebook pages. She will be doing a cover for my sequl to E&D, karen's sequel to Ruby and my book on special relativity. You won't be disappointed at the result or the price.
     
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  17. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    That is a splendid idea I think I'll steal from you.:) Thank you! I wouldn't have thought of using a tattoo for promotion, bookmarks and whatnot. The title of my WIP is, A Rebellion of Swallows. I don't think I have to tell you how big swallows are in the tattooing world. Indeed, in the passage I've pasted below you'll see that it comes up in the story. It's 1792 in the south of France and three 12-year-old girls are sitting around the campfire telling stories. Mabel is regaling the other girls of her older brother's harrowing adventure at sea...


    Rosemarie edged closer. “I’ve never heard of such a thing. Do go on, Mabel.”

    “The crew trade some of their stores in good faith, give the natives proper axes and fine calico cloth to repay their kindness. They find the savages to be quite civilized in their own way. Enzo says he’d rather have the company of these strange folk than any Englishman alive. My brother was something of a curiosity among their hosts, on account of the pretty picture of a bird painted on his chest.”

    Adeline raised a hand. “Do you mean a tattoo?”

    “Yes. And a fine one at that. Though Mother was furious with him when she saw it, ‘Heavens no! My only son branded like the heathen. What will Father Anatole say?’” Mabel slapped her knee and laughed. “It was on Enzo’s first Atlantic crossing that he got his tattoo, while the Pandora was anchored in Baltimore Harbor. That’s in America. On Enzo’s night ashore, his shipmates took ’im to a whorehouse to get his wick wet, on account he was a virgin. Well, after the deed was done they got ’im stinking drunk, and poor Enzo, he was out cold. He awoke to find a Negro, a freed slave, putting the finishing touches to a tattoo of a barn swallow on his chest.”

    “Why a swallow?” asked Rosemarie.

    “Ah, because no matter how far a swallow flies, it always finds its way home,” Mabel said sagely.
     
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  18. Partridge

    Partridge Senior Member

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    Thanks, Lew. She sounds very promising for what I have in mind. I've fired out an email to her.
     
  19. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    I wonder if it matters. Some of the most basic covers seem to sell books fine, and some commissioned covers I've seen prevented me from picking the book up. Covers just serve to set expectations, for the most part.
     
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  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    It definitely matters - if you advertise on amazon your cover is the only 'creative' used in the ad - crap cover= no sales

    That said a cover doesn't have to be complicated - some of the best covers are simple (Ie simple isn't the same as crap and complex isn't the same as good)
     
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  21. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Yeah, but what is a "crap cover"?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It took a lot of talent to make that awful Stross cover.
     
  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The stross cover isn't crap per se … its a deliberate parody of cover tropes

    I mean more this sort of thing - no talent, no effort, lack of decent software

    cloud.jpg smoky.jpg twelve-500x707.jpg
     
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  23. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    And that's why people need to understand the difference between an artist and a graphic artist. Design is it's own skill.
     
  24. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    My advice is to go to a tattooist, and good ones will bespoke you a design that'll run you around 150-200$ per hour to get applied. Then you'll not only have a design for your cover, but a kickass tattoo that you can write off as a business expense. If it's not good enough for your body, why should it be good enough for their fridge?
     
  25. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Those aren't the fault of the artist, but the artist, editor, publisher and author.
     

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