English teacher arguement, adjectives!!!

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by grange666, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Doesn't that makes 'out' an adverb, not an adjective? It modifies the verb "burst".
     
  2. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. I can't see any interpretation of the sentence in which "out" could be considered an adjective.
     
  3. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, as the diagram shows, it modifies burst and is, therefore, an adverb.
     
  4. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Painful CAN modify 'broke' it can also modify 'arm'. In one case it is an adverbial phrase, in the other it is adjectival. "The broken arm was painful" is very different from "[he] broke his arm, which was painful". In the first case, 'broken' is an adjective, in the second, 'broke' is a verb.

    The sentence has two verb phrases: "slipped violently" and "broke his arm" the adverbial clause "which was excruciatingly painful" can modify either of these verbs (the slipping was painful or the break was painful.) Alternately, but very unlikely, the clause was meant to be adjectival and modify 'arm' (... his arm, which was excruciatingly painful ...).

    Diagram it if you don't believe me (or look at my diagrams on the first page).
     
  5. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    ^^ Can't give you any more rep, but thanks for the diagram idea!
     
  6. Ian J.

    Ian J. Active Member

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    I think my initial confusion was due to the adverbial potential of the usage of 'painful'. However, on looking up the word 'painful', and linking it to the word 'pain', which is, of course, an abstract noun, I was happy to accept 'painful' as an adjective of the word 'pain' (whether that's a correct way of reaching such a conclusion I'm not sure).

    It's things like this that only confirm to me that I don't know my language as well as I wish I did :(
     
  7. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    I updated my post on the first page as well, but I wanted to post a clarification. I checked my notes/books last night and I mis-diagrammed the adverbial/adjectival clause. It is most correctly diagrammed:


    ------------[S/NP]--------[L.V.]---[Adj]
    [[the break] or [the arm]]| was \ painful
    __________________________\excruciatingly
    _____________________________[Adv]

    So painful should be on the adjective list. The clause is, as previously mentioned, likely adverbial. Although, this assumes an implied subject. If the clause is directly modifying the verb, it could still be argued that painful is an adverb ([slipped] or [broke] was painful); although that sentence is not grammatically sound (as is often the case in speech).

    The main sentence has two verb clauses, [slipped violently] and [broke his arm]. The prepositional phrase [which was excruciatingly painful] can technically act as an adverb and modify [slipped] or [broke] OR it can act as an adjective and modify [arm]. These would read, respectively:
    "He slipped violently, which was painful, and broke his arm."
    "He broke his arm, which was painful, when he slipped."
    "His arm, which was painful, broke when he slipped."

    So to answer the OP's question: The adjectives are: Cold, Icy, Front, Usual, His (3 instances), and Painful.

    OP, what were they claiming as Adjectives in their answer?
     
  8. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Ahem.... So I can skip my reply then. ;)
     
  9. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Most likely, although, like I pointed out, in an agrammatical setting (i.e. speech) the implied 'subject' is easily one of the verbs; which would make painful an adverb (was would be linking a verb to an adverb). But that is a different conversation (diagramming agramatical speech).

    I tripped up in that I assumed that, because the adjective was part of an adverbial clause, that the clause's function would supersede the individual word's function. It's a messy situation, and there isn't much info on how to properly address it. It's only an adjective if you give the clause a different structure/context (which has to be done to diagram it properly). I still believe painful is an adverb (because it is modifying how the arm broke or what sort of slip occured), but I think I'd be the minority voice in that discussion.

    *EDIT*
    I shot the question over to the Grammar Girl site, to see what she thinks. I'll post her reply, should she send one.
     
  10. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I don't think it's equivocal at all. "The arm was painful." One would not write, "the arm broke painfully", the way that sentence was written. And I'm guessing there is a grammar rule why not. "His arm, which was", vs "broke, which was", should make it more clear what "which was" refers to.

    "It was a cold and icy day. David burst out of his front door and ran for his usual bus. However in doing so he slipped violently and broke his arm, which was excruciatingly painful."


    If there's a rule explaining why I'm wrong, I'll be happy to reconsider.
     
  11. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Would you mind diagramming the sentence to demonstrate your point? I can't see how you don't see the clause as acting adverbially.
     
  12. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    The arm was painful. = full of pain. Could that be like a noun, there? (like: the ticket was paper = paper remains a noun even if it's describing the ticket).
    Breaking the arm was painful = I can see why that's like an adverbial clause. But: "The break was painful" the break is a noun, and so you are modifying it with an adjective.
    Just curious. I'm sure you are more onto it than I am.
     
  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Diagramming isn't my thing, but this might help:
    ... in doing so he slipped violently and broke his arm, which was excruciatingly painful."

    Do you agree, "broke his arm" is an independent clause?

    "Which was painful" is a relative clause.

    Adjective Clauses
    Makes one wonder if the teacher called all the words in the clause the adjectives or just the adjective? That gets complicated given there is clearly an adverb in the clause.
     
  14. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    It gets complicated, which is why diagramming is important/useful.

    "Which was excruciatingly painful" is a relative clause that is acting appositively, to re-name or amplify the clause that immediately precedes it. This is why the sentence can read that he fell and broke an arm that was already in excruciating pain.

    However, given the overall context of the passage, I believe that the phrase is meant to modify the verb(s), and tell us what sort of break or slip we are dealing with (an excruciatingly painful one). Had the author previously mentioned the arm being injured, it would be more likely that the phrase was meant to be adjectival and tell us about the arm.

    "broke his arm" is not a clause, as it lacks a subject. It is a verb phrase (just like "slipped violently"). "Which was excruciatingly painful" is a clause, because 'which' takes the place of the subject in the sentence. However, in this case, 'which' is a vague pronoun (as we don't clearly know what it points at).

    This is again, one of the reasons we diagram sentences, so that we can see/tease out these ambiguities. It's also worth noting that "However" was incorrectly used in the original passage. It should have read:
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    OK, so broke his arm becomes a dependent clause, nothing else changes. As for the diagramming, to each his/her own. I find it's a waste of time.

    You've changed "to break", a verb, to a noun, "the break". Then you say "painful" describes "the break." I think you've missed that little switch.
     
  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So after reading the replies, links and my research, I'm going with the following, adjectives in red:

    "It was a cold and icy day. David burst out of his front door and ran for his usual bus. However in doing so he slipped violently and broke his arm, which was excruciatingly painful"

    Articles are special adjectives but they are still adjectives according to this source.

    I'm a tad uncertain but decided "his" modifies "bus" and does not modify "usual". If 'his' is an adverb there, that would be subjective, in my opinion, and too much of a trick question for any class assignment.

    I've decided the entire adjectival clause either contains the adjective, "painful", of functions as a single adjective. If the teacher calls the whole clause the adjective I want partial credit. :p

    I await the teacher's answer whenever grange666 gets back to the thread.
     
  17. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    "broke his arm" is not a clause at all; it doesn't have a subject to answer the question "Who broke his arm?". It's a verb phrase (one of two in this sentence).

    _[S/NP]__[T.V.]__[D.O.]
    [ ] | broke | arm
    _________________\
    __________________His [Adj]

    If you, by your own admission, are not comfortable/knowledgeable with diagramming, how can you be so sure it is a waste of time?

    When 'painful' describes "broke", a verb, 'painful' is acting as an adverb(ial). I haven't made or missed any switches.


    The OP can keep my partial credit from mentioning that possibility on page one...
     
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    OK, "slipped and broke his arm", I'll give you that. How does the reader know whether "was painful" modifies "slipped and broke" or "arm"? I think "which" tells us it is the arm that is being modified.

    Where do you find me saying, "I'm not comfortable/knowledgeable with diagramming"? That would be confirmation bias on your part, I believe. I learned how to diagram a sentence in grade school.

    I said, I don't find the exercise useful. There's no magic revelation when one diagrams a sentence. A diagram doesn't prevent you from making an error. If it helps you, go for it. I find it no more than a time wasting exercise.

    Let's not get too condescending here. Neither of us is a total grammar novice. I know what would or would not make "painful" and adverb. That is not the issue of contention here. The issue is whether "painful" modifies "arm" or "broke"


    Here's my reasoning: It seems to me that "which" tells the reader the adjectival clause modifies the last noun, "arm". In addition, if the phrase in question was an adverbial clause rather than an adjectival clause, it should read something like, "he slipped violently and broke his arm, which [and doing so] was excruciatingly painful.

    Find me a rule that says why "which" connects to an adverbial clause in this case and you may have me convinced. Typically, grammar is not supposed to be ambivalent or equivocal. Usually there is some rule like, a pronoun modifies the last preceding noun. I think "which" makes the clause refer back to "arm".
     
  19. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    There is nothing which specifies what "which was painful" is modifying. That is why 'which' is a vague pronoun in this case. 'Which' just points the clause back to another point in the sentence. It can point to a verb phrase or a noun phrase.
    "His arm broke, which was painful"
    "he slipped violently, which was painful"
    "his arm, which was painful..."

     
  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    ... that you know of. I find that atypical of grammar rules and therefore stand by my position. I gathered from reading the grammar sources that "which" did mean the clause referred back to "arm".

    It's not. What's your point? Do you think "isn't my thing" is defined as, "I'm not comfortable/knowledgeable with diagramming"? Because that is not what it means.

    :)
     
  21. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Normally yes, 'which' is a pronoun that refers to a specific noun. However, in the case of a broad-reference relative clause, 'which' can refer to an entire idea. From "Understanding English Grammar, seventh edition, by Martha Kolln and Robert Funk (pages 216 and 217):
    This clarifies what I've been saying, that 'which was painful' can refer to the verbs or the noun. It also answers the question from page one:
    Out is associated with 'burst' as an idiom, as 'burst out' has a different meaning than 'burst' or 'out' would separately. ("he burst out the door" is different than, "he out burst the door")
     
  22. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    I'm pretty sure, after further review, that "which was excruciatingly painful" is a pattern VI clause (per Reed-Kellogg diagramming), which means that was is acting intransitively here (as in: "Who was upstairs last night?" "John was."

    It would therefor diagram:

    [S/NP]-------[I.V.]
    [which]___|__was__
    ______________\painful [adverb]
    _________________\excruciatingly [adverb qualifier]

    This is, indeed, a rare form for the verb was, which is probably why it's causing so much confusion.
     
  23. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    I googled Reed-Kellogg diagramming, and it pointed me to this site, which diagrams sentences for you. I entered "In doing so he slipped violently and broke his arm, which was excruciatingly painful." It assured me that "painful" was an adjective.

    I don't know anything about this diagramming procedure, so I don't have any further comment.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks for the link, the auto diagrammer is neat, but it has limitations (like the grammar checker in MSWord). The diagram it produces is valid, assuming that the clause modifies arm (which is possible) but it doesn't show the possible diagrams for the two verbs, which are also possible, because it limits 'which' to relative clauses. It also cannot diagram the full sentence, "However in doing so he slipped violently and broke his arm, which was excruciatingly painful." Because the program expects 'However' to refer to a previous clause (which it doesn't always do). Combining the last two sentences and changing 'however' to 'but' allows it to diagram. It also calls 'his' a pronoun in every case, which is incorrect (in this context). Like I said, it's useful but not perfect.

    I am now 98% sure that I've diagrammed it correctly for the two verbs and the noun; all of which are possible.
     

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