Enough is enough, ladies

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Jack Asher, Feb 7, 2015.

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  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    What?

    I think you're reading more into my post than I put there. I'm honestly just trying to figure out what you were saying - I know I'm not offended by it, because I couldn't even understand it!

    So... do you want to keep trying? I'm asking questions in good faith. I mean, it's possible that I'll disagree with you, once I know what you're saying, but I don't disagree yet...
     
  2. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, but these were also ALL critically acclaimed films that would succeed on their own merit regardless.
     
  3. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, but these were also ALL critically acclaimed films that would succeed on their own merit regardless.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    ....but the (false) premise is that a woman in that sort of role will prevent success. That's why so few women are cast for those sorts of roles.
     
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  5. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    I agree. Just playing devil's advocate.
     
  6. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    you were quick to pick that one apart, he was offering an example of the increasing trend, not towards equality, but towards men becoming submissive to women. which, i hasten to add, is no better or worse than women being submissive to men
     
  7. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    oh but they are, for example, one presenter said that the burkah (cant spell, sorry) was bad because it stops people from seeing if the wearer was 'a typical bad guy' by which she meant from the middle east. and in the process accused the charlie hebdo terrorists of being sneaky because they weren't typical bad guys.
     
  8. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    here here.
     
  9. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You have to get to equality first before the tide shifts in the other direction. :rolleyes:
     
  10. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You lost me here. :confused:
     
  11. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    basically, presenters on fox say very stupid things quite regularly
     
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  12. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    not true. does a coin have to balance on its edge before it can fall on its side?
     
  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It doesn't have to balance there, but it has to reach that point, yeah. It might all be one movement with no pause, but it can't flip without going past the vertical.
     
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  14. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    maybe.
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Balancing on the edge is the middle. If it is leaning toward heads, it can't fall towards tails and vice versa.
     
  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Not maybe, definitely!
     
  17. Okon

    Okon Contributor Contributor

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    A complex societal structure isn't going to change linearly as a coin would. There will be, as there are now, areas of the system where women do have the advantage, and vise-versa.
     
  18. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @GingerCoffee

    You said men are falling behind in high school because they "slack off." You do know it's been shown that a large reason behind the pay gap is that men work more hours, right? This of course doesn't account for the entire pay gap. There's still another 7% difference unaccounted for, which is still significant, but much smaller than the oft cited 22 %.
    http://www.aauw.org/2014/09/18/gender-pay-gap/

    Now, you might, rightfully, point to other factors contributing to the hours worked difference, like child rearing, and this is fair. However, is it not fair to point to other causes besides men "slacking off" and "getting arrested" for falling behind in education, like maybe the current school systems are better "designed" for female success, just like current work places are "designed" for male success (eg, working more hours gets you more pay)?

    This thread isn't about equality. It's about a trend in how young men are raised, overall equality or not.

    One thing I'd like to see is the gender pay gap for only people under 30. Is the 7% gap still existent, or are things getting better for women when we only consider newer people? You might like this link. http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/19/news/economy/gender-wage-gap-millennials/

    "After accounting for factors like job title, experience, industry and tenure, the difference in overall median pay between men and women millennial workers is 2.2% ($51,000 vs. $49,000). This age group, defined in the study as those born 1982-2002, are more likely to hold entry-level positions, where the gap is smaller."



    You mentioned equality. One thing to consider is that society is not some static entity. There's constant processes occurring. Obviously you know of the pendulum. Society applies certain societal pressures to itself to achieve a certain goal, but that doesn't mean that when that goal will be reached, that suddenly the force just stops and equality is kept.


    This is completely hypothetical, but I want to know if you agree its possible. Once upon a time American life sucked for women. Women were paid less and treated unfairly and perceived as unequal. New pressures have been introduced to rectify this. This means affirmative action. This means charging companies for discrimination. This means teaching women new things. This means teaching men new things. At some point, we're going to have older generations who were not as affected by this change, and new generations who were very affected by this change. Looking at the picture as a whole, anyone would say "equality has not yet been reached."

    But is it possible that the picture might be different if we only look at younger generations? (Think about the CNN money link I posted) This is why trends are interesting. What I took from that silly video posted in the OP was that some mothers feel their sons are being taught negative messages When it suddenly becomes OK to say, "yeah, men are falling behind in school because they slack off and get arrested and suspended more," can you honestly not see why people have a right to be concerned?

    It's no secret that there is large gender gap (in favor of men) in math SAT test scores . http://blogs.britannica.com/2009/07/more-on-the-male-female-sat-math-test-gap/

    No doubt, countless efforts have been made to explain why this is so. For the record, I agree with those explanations. I do not think females are inferior in math or science. I think there are societal differences that create this. However, I also think the same can be said for why men are falling behind in school as a whole. It's not that men are "worse," as you seemed to imply in your post. There are societal differences that are being ignored. If you looked at one of the links I posted you earlier (I don't blame you if you didn't), it explains that boys like school less, like being with teachers less, etc, although initially they are as excited about school as girls. This is sort of the same as when tresearchers compared math aptitude tests of seven year old girls and boys, and found no difference. Something is happening in society to create these gaps.

    Now, I've pointed to an obvious gap between men and women. Forget about the unemployment, even. The education gap is real, and what that suggests is that maybe, in the fight for equality for women, young boys are receiving some negative messages. Can you agree in this possibility?
     
  19. Ankoku Teion

    Ankoku Teion Active Member

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    i know, but i couldn't think of a better example.
     
  20. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    A little androgyny never hurt anyone.
     
  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Tell that to my ~30 year old virgin peer.
     
  22. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Actually you could, and he'd agree with you! That's part of the problem.
     
  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Hate to pop your bubble, @123456789, but the pay discrepancy is for the same work with workers who have the same experience and qualifications.

    I don't have time to fine tooth comb your post at the moment, I'm behind in a dozen things. But all of those rationalizations fall apart when you just look at unequal pay for equal work.

    For example, despite being the top billing name,
    Sony emails reveal Jennifer Lawrence paid less than male co-stars.

    Stop denying the gender pay gap exists. Even Jennifer Lawrence was shortchanged.
    Think it was just Lawrence? Think again.
    Charlize Theron Negotiates $10M Raise After Sony Hack Reveals Male Costar Was To Be Paid Millions More.

    And surely you've heard of Lilly Ledbetter.
     
  24. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I find it really odd you answered your own post.

    Anyway, I don't see why that would be a problem.
     
  25. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Name a profession besides stripper where women are paid more than men doing the same job. Waitress? :rolleyes:
     
  26. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Page 3 model? :p
     
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