Feeling sad for the world today

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Lea`Brooks, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not sure what country you're in, but in the United States it applies to religious beliefs: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

    A quote from that page: "The law requires an employer or other covered entity to reasonably accommodate an employee’s religious beliefs or practices, unless doing so would cause more than a minimal burden on the operations of the employer's business."

    Edited to add: And not all employees are paid for all breaks. I'd guess that "reasonable accommodation" breaks would not be paid.
     
  2. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    The difference being "minimal burden" for religious beliefs and "undue hardship" for disabilities. Reasonable accommodation in the case of religious beliefs is basically forbidding discrimination and little more. If an employee works on an assembly line, their prayers have to wait until the line shuts down; if someone with a disability requires leaving the line, a substitute has to be found.

    If one is a salaried employee, breaks aren't required at all. Federal law doesn't require rest breaks, but most state laws do, and then federal law requires that those breaks are paid. Only meal breaks are not considered work time.

    But hey, if people want to scream about "Christian Privilege", what the hell, right? It's another bandwagon that's easy to hop on board...
     
  3. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    :rofl:
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It feels a little as if you're arguing with yourself here.
     
  5. Reptile Hazard

    Reptile Hazard Member

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    I know it isn't my place to butt in into this conversation since I'm barely a member here and never talk, but I do have to say that perhaps you should have a little more perspective, Lea`Brooks. You can cop out and say that this is just your opinion, but you can't, objectively, say that religious people getting a discount is somehow akin to tragedies where people are losing their lives. But if you are saying that, perhaps you need to reevaluate your current perception of the world.

    The only justification I've seen you give so far is that certain people are being treated better than you and you don't like that. You claim these people feel entitled to something because of their religion, but we cannot know that for sure because none of them are here to clarify that. In contrast, your attitude suggest that it is you who feels entitled to something, just because. In this world people get treated differently for a multitude of reasons, and in this case it is because they are praying. I don't think the owner of the restaurant has a secret agenda about it, other than to support what he believes in. He isn't encouraging them to go shun some homosexual people or whatever it is you think religious people are up to, he's encouraging them to do something harmless and, in his eyes, good. I see this as something to be happy about, not that religious folk are getting discounts, but that there are people who are doing something they like (and that is harmless) and are being rewarded for it. Would you not like to be rewarded for doing something that was good in your eyes? Or would you say that it's something that has to be done and would refuse the reward? It is human to want to be rewarded, and we shouldn't shame people who want to.

    I think the issue might be with you. Maybe you hold bitter memories or experiences of religious people, and it isn't wrong of you to feel resentment, because you have the right to. But perhaps you should consider other people's feelings when you lump what they believe in with tragedies such as the ones you posted.

    Finally, I do not mean to offend you with this post, nor am I arrogant enough to think I'm helping you. It's just that, to me, it always helps me to get various opinions and points of view to perhaps notice that the issue might not be so one sided. But if you are indeed offended by this post, I sincerely apologize, as that was not my intention.
     
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  6. Snoopingaround

    Snoopingaround Banned

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    Religion is cool. Even though I am an atheist, I think religion can be very inspiring and beautiful, from the wonderful buildings, to the music and arts it can inspire, and the passion it can bring out and the dedication and all of that.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    My issue is that I see this as people of a dominant, powerful cultural group being rewarded for demonstrating their membership in that dominant group.
     
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  8. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Not really. I was told I actually meant "Christians" when I said (and meant) "folks" - and the specific "breaks" I noted were actually for Muslims and Jews - so, not Christians. The "reasonable accommodations" was a clarification of the difference between law and SOP, and I pointed out that businesses give "breaks" for religious folks that go beyond the "minimal burden" required by law, and how religious RA is much less rigid than for those with disabilities.

    But as I said, if people want to go the "Bad Christians!" route, so be it. It just gets old.
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It appears that those employer concessions--the right for employees to wear clothing not in conflict with their religion, the right to daily prayer, etc.--have been treated as required by law. I've rather lost track of where our thread of discussion here is headed, but wanted to note that.

    Edited to add: And I'm not saying "bad Christians" for the discount, but it does strike me as a reward for demonstrating one's membership in an already socially dominant group.
     
  10. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

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    On the note of happiness/sadness:



    Though the removal of sadness seems impossible, it is compelling and beautiful.
     
  11. Reptile Hazard

    Reptile Hazard Member

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    In this regard you are correct, but only if we're talking about christians or any of the major religions. But again, it is a completely harmless demostration of it, and nothing bad is coming out of it. I see this as the same as celebrities getting special treatment just because of their status. A counter argument would be that they worked to get their status, so let's give a better example and include rich people. Sure, some of them had to work really hard to get to where they are, but their children and spouses receive the same treatment without having done any of the work, and their special treatment can be harmful to society, with such cases as the "affluenza" kid. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/affluenza-teen-ethan-couch-due-back-court-article-1.1602998

    And besides, you can't really say christianity can get away with what it used to nowadays. Sure they can discriminate against any group they want, but not without huge social backlash, and they don't do it as often as they used to. Though they are still relevant (in the sense that they still have a big precsence), I don't see that as all-powerful dominant, but as either a change for good or a resignation to the changing world, and both are acceptable, in my opinion.
     
  12. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Well, it's not like Christianity is the only major religion that's had badly-behaving factions. Or is Islam (the second largest religion in the world) not considered a fair target? I mean, seriously - we jump to condemn "Christians" as if they were a huge homogeneous group, but seem to bend over backwards to point out that Muslims are not "all bad", it's just a few bad apples. What's with that?
     
  13. Reptile Hazard

    Reptile Hazard Member

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    I agree with you, Shadowwalker. It seems that because christianity is a "first-world" religion (that is to say, it has a huge prescence in first world countries, not that it is only practiced in the first world) everyone thinks its okay to hate them without any regard. I don't claim that to be the only issue, but certainly it is americans mostly (that I've seen) who raise a huge argument everytime it is mentioned.
     
  14. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    I do believe I said I was sad about them getting discounts... I didn't say it was as terrible as the other things I posted. So are you saying I'm only allowed to be sad about world tragedies and not the smaller things in life?

    Except it's not harmless. It's illegal. They are discriminating against non-religious people by offering discounts for religious people. They were threatened with legal action, so they stopped offering the discount.

    I have no resentment towards religious folks. As I said previously, I was raised Christian. My entire family is Christian. I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they are above the law, including people who discriminate against others for not being religious. And I do have a problem with some (make sure I throw that word in there) Christians thinking they are the only religion allowed to be in the US. Pagans and Muslims have just as many rights as Christians. And no, I don't think it's fair that Christianity is allowed to have churches but pagans get denied. I don't think it's fair that the Ten Commandments can be found at government buildings but pagans aren't allowed to erect statues. And I don't think it's fair that so many people think this is fair. It's inequality as it's finest.

    I'm not offended. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But don't automatically assume someone has had a traumatic past with religion just because they believe the law should be followed. Don't misread me being sad about world tragedies and religious discounts as me saying they are equal evils.
     
  15. Reptile Hazard

    Reptile Hazard Member

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    Ok then, I apologize for that, it was wrong of me to assume that. My confusion came from you posting them in the same post without clarifying, but reading some your later posts (which I somehow missed, my bad) that you did say they were not the same.

    To discriminate would be to deny them service if they didn't pray before eating. Is that the case? I really am asking, no sarcasm intended. Also, how is this discount any different than say, someone giving a discount to people if they do a dance before they eat? To use a real world example, a few years ago Burger King was giving a discount to people who did a hand sign and said something like "I'm watching you" or something to that effect. Was that discriminating against people who didn't wanted to do it? They still sold the same things to everyone, just some of them got a discount if they did something before ordering. Would you mind explaining how is that any different? I think Shadowwalker is right, and people are too quick to hate on a "safe to hate" group.

    I'm not north american so I'm not familiar with the laws over there, but isn't it discrimination to deny this reastaurant to do whatever it wants. as long as it doesn't harm anyone? If the discount is somehow related to your tax dollars as someone said earlier, then yes, I think this could be considered illegal, but to say that it is illegal because someone took legal action about it is misleading; people are petty, they take legal action against every little thing that offends them. That doesn't mean they're right.

    But hey, that's just how you view things; if you choose to be sad about something as trivial as that the only one at a loss here is you.
     
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  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Well it was a natural assumption to think you were listing things that you saw as part of the world falling apart.


    Moving on: Apparently the uproar over the praying discount was fueled by a FaceBook post of a copy of the restaurant receipt that went a little viral:

    A North Carolina diner that offers discounts to praying customers has ignited an internet firestorm across the US.
    Kind of makes you feel sad there was an uproar rather than being sad about the fact the discount appeared on the bill.

    As much as I would always fight for separation of church and state, hearing the restaurant owner's side of the story I get a whole different picture.

    The resulting 15 minutes of fame could have been God rewarding a good Christian. But it didn't last.

    I can see Bill O'Reilly's show now, "Another attack in the war on Christians."

    Yes, the world is sad.
     
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  17. Reptile Hazard

    Reptile Hazard Member

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    It is nice to get some clarification on the matter. The owner seems like a good person, but since it was in fact against the law, there was no other option then.
     
  18. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    The OP shared with us the fact that he/she feels sad about the world, and now here we are discussing whether or not this 'praying before eating to get a discount' is something to be sad about.

    I think the OP has a right to feel sad about it. There are things I feel sad about that, to others, seem completely trivial. I can't even watch natural documentaries anymore like I used to as a child, because I feel sad watching the prey run for dear life away from the predator, or worse, struggling desperately while the predator has it in its clutches. How the humans observing this with their cameras not get all weepy/mad about it is a testament to them. I'd probably lose it and send my jeep barreling toward the lions to save that poor antelope. This is why I'm not a naturalist.

    More to the point, the OP can feel sad for certain things he/she sees wrong with the world, even if they seem trivial to us. I also think I've missed the point of this thread, because I think this thread took a detour somewhere in the four pages. :D

    That said, the owner does seem like a nice person.
     
  19. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Unfortunately the Freedom From Religion Foundation's letter was poorly conceived in my opinion.

    I don't think the letter should have started with a paragraph on how many supporters the FFRF had.

    And the letter might have been a little more conciliatory instead of ranting about the civil rights of atheists. Perhaps they could have said, you may not have intended to discriminate but unfortunately the practice does.
     
  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    No one said otherwise. It was just said that an equivalence seemed apparent that was disproportionate. She has clarified that was not intended.
     
  21. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Ah, thanks for clarifying that for me. :D
     
  22. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    I feel that I'm having to repeat myself because people either aren't seeing my posts or aren't bothering to read them.

    @Reptile Hazard -- Since you aren't from the US, it makes it harder for you to understand this subject. It isn't that someone threatened to press charges over something silly. It is against the law. It violates the First Amendment right to be free from religion. So by them giving discounts to those who prayed, no matter who they prayed to, it failed to recognize non-religious people.

    Offering a discount to those who do something silly, like I said before, is not the same thing, because it is offered to everyone. They may not want to so, but it doesn't mean they can't. While anyone could pray in that restaurant, are you really suggesting someone does something against their beliefs just to get a discount? That seems wrong to me.

    @GingerCoffee -- I DO believe people breaking the law and offering discounts to religious folks is another reason why our country is falling apart. I don't believe it is as tragic as the other things I listed, but yes, I think it's sad and wrong.

    I also already stated above that the owner released a statement saying the discount was for anyone who paused to be thankful, though I'm not sure whether or not I believe it. Besides, the fact that it wasn't advertised is that much more concerning to me, because then it really wasn't available to everyone.

    To no one in particular, I also think it's sad that my integrity and morals are being questioned because I believe the law should be followed and all religions (or lack of a religion) should be created equal. That's my mistake. I'm done.
     
  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Well I wasn't questioning your integrity or morals @Lea`Brooks, however I do think now you are digging your heels in a tad more than necessary.

    I'm an atheist. I care about separation of church and state and I certainly care about the Civil Rights Act.

    I just don't think, upon hearing the restaurant owner's side (if the BBC article is correct), that she intended to discriminate. You could argue she should have known what laws affected her business. But not everyone understands what every law applies to and I can see she might have just made an innocent mistake.

    If you want to be sad about religious impositions on the rest of us, the SCOTUS ruling on the HobbyLobby case is a more worthy mention.

    The discounted meal case is hardly worse than a Christian saying 'God bless you' to a customer on the way out the door. It may very well be offensive to many people but the comment was out of ignorance not proselytizing or discrimination.

    The Freedom From Religion Foundation's letter could have been better stated. The restaurant owner could have been better informed about the law. And most stories like this have two sides. If there's any lesson at all, that would be it.
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    The cash value of a "God bless you' is zero. The cash value of a fifteen percent discount is not. Why is it OK to charge less to people who demonstrate religious behavior? Why is it OK to charge more to people who don't demonstrate religious behavior?

    Would it be OK for a mortgage company to give a lower interest rate to those who demonstrate religious behavior? For colleges to give higher priority to applicants who demonstrate religious behavior? Employers? Landlords?

    Maybe the issue is that fifteen percent of a diner meal seems to be such a trivial cost that it's not even treated as money. But to plenty of people, that's real money.
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Agnostics and atheists are paying more for their food, as a penalty for their religious choices. I'd call that something bad.

    Edited to add: Religious people who choose not to make a public show of their religion--a public show that in some cases is forbidden by their religion--are paying more for their food, as a penalty for their choice of how to exercise their religion. I'd call that bad, too.
     

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