Feminism

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by mashers, Sep 1, 2018.

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  1. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    Foxxx, I really feel like you're missed Bayview's point.

    The words "correct" and "appropriate/inappropriate" have certain connotations that don't work here. That was her point.

    She was using my story as an example, not saying you were talking about it.
     
  2. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    I disagree. That was my point.

    I define defending oneself as an appropriate response. I define "correct" response as the one that is least likely to get you killed in a firefight, which is - I assume - what they try to teach in military training. If you assume harm reduction to be the goal, I fail to see how this doesn't make sense.

    There are appropriate responses to being lost, stuck in an elevator, mugged, hitting your head and seeing stars, encountering a bear or an animal with rabies, being in a car underwater. The list goes on.

    That doesn't mean I'm not going to sympathize with somebody who didn't respond in those ways, criticize them, or demean them or something. Nor does it mean that responses that are more appropriate or "correct" are going to work every single time. Nor does it excuse the perpetrators.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Do you know why people freeze in traumatic situations? Because from an evolutionary perspective, it was often the best response. It was what kept our ancestors alive when they were faced with situations beyond their control.

    Do you know when the most dangerous time is for victims of domestic abuse? The time when they're most likely to be murdered? It's after they've separated from the abuser. (http://www.women.gov.on.ca/owd/english/ending-violence/domestic_violence.shtml) Women are six times more likely to be murdered by their exes than by their current partners. So... tell me again what the "appropriate" response to abuse/assault is?
     
  4. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    Not quite.

    Freezing is one of three basic reactions which includes fight and flight. Oftentimes reacting to a situation will require a combination. When a snake lunges at you from behind the glass at a zoo, try freezing. More than likely it isn't possible.

    Okay, so the domestic abuse victim can either subject themselves to a lifetime of more abuse, or they can take the risk of separating themselves from their abuser. The first doesn't seem like a valid option to me if you want what is best for the victim. The solid chance at freedom seems like the better choice.
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    And if you're ever a victim of domestic abuse, that's absolutely a valid decision for you to make. But if other victims make other decisions, they could very well be doing the right thing for themselves, in their circumstances, with their tolerance of risk. There's nothing inappropriate about their actions.
     
  6. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    This is such an amorphous statement that there isn't a way to comment on its veracity or usefulness.

    If you assume that the best thing for people is to not stay with their abuser and accept a lifetime of abuse, it quickly becomes very evident what the path of action should be.
     
  7. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    I see your point.

    What I'm trying to say (and what Bayview is trying to say) is that when someone is physically larger than you (or they're armed), physically fighting back is not a realistic or effective solution. They're just going to fuck you up.

    When a victim freezes, that is them trying to defend themselves. It's them thinking "If I lie still, this will over faster and hurt less." It's not an incorrect response. In fact, a lot of the time, that person is totally correct. In my situation, I was assaulted by a person much larger than me in a public space. The goal is to get away alive and unhurt. If I'd screamed or physically fought back, is that really a "better" response? Say I screamed and he broke my arm.

    Do you see what I'm saying, here? There's no correct response, there's just effective responses and non-effective responses.

    Usually when someone chooses to assault (sexually or otherwise) you, it's because they already believe they can overpower you. They are prepared for this. They picked you.
     
  8. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    I don't believe that if somebody were to attack another person in a public space (that is to say, with a lot of other people around) that nobody would do anything.

    I do believe that if the victim does everything in their power to make sure nobody knows about the assailant, that of course nobody will do anything, because nobody knows.

    If the perpetrator is acting in public, I don't believe it's just because they think they can overpower their victim. It's because they don't expect the person to do anything, and consequently nobody else will either.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    If you accept that the best thing for people is not to dramatically increase their chances of being murdered by their abuser, it quickly become very evident what the path of action should be.

    Oh, but... wait. The world isn't that simple. It's not black and white and there are a million variables to consider and armchair quarterbacking is a bullshit way to treat something as serious as abuse/assault.

    And this is where the pushback against victim-blaming comes from. Because you know what the best solution to abusive relationships is? The abuser should stop abusing. There's really not many shades of grey, there. Is it appropriate to abuse a domestic partner? No, it isn't. Problem solved. So why are we talking about the victim's role? Why is the conversation being deflected in that direction?

    What should you do after someone sexually assaults you at a party? Jesus, I don't know, because that just never happens!

    How should you respond to someone abusing you in your home? I--I can't imagine! Why would anyone ever do that?!?

    I know it's exhausting to deal with groping on public transit. I know it's ubiquitous and if you made a scene and pressed charges every time it happened you'd be spending your life in the police station, but-- Wait, what? People put their hands on strangers without consent? No, I've never heard of that. Are you sure? Was it... was it monkeys, maybe?

    etc.
     
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  10. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    What, would you prefer them all to face a lifetime of abuse, and that the perpetrators never be brought to justice? I'm confused.

    No, it isn't. Teaching people methods of defending themselves and how to take precautions for different potential scenarios is not a "bullshit way" to treat something as serious as abuse and assault, or anything else. It's just as legitimate as asking people to not stampede towards the exits if the fire alarm goes off in a movie theater, and why schools do tornado drills and lockdown drills.

    Because we don't live in la-la land where there are no abusers, and we never will, and it would be immoral to instruct people to pretend like we live in such a world. And we don't live in a world where people have no responsibility for their own safety.

    Yeah, you know what, we should live in a world where there are no tornadoes, bomb threats, school-shooters, and fires. But we still have police and we still have firefighters, and thank God.

    You're straw-manning what I'm saying. This has nothing to do with blaming the victim and saying that they're the sole-reason why something bad happened to them, and that the perpetrator is therefore innocent. Look to the middle-east if you want examples of that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It's not a question of what I'd rather. Because I'm not in charge of these people, and neither are you. They need to make their own decisions based on their own situations and all the details you and I know nothing about. That's why it's ignorant of us to be saying what's appropriate or not for them.

    We have building codes that determine what materials are allowed to be used in movie theatres, rules about who's allowed in schools in order to keep students safe without having to do lockdowns... what should we be doing to prevent sexual assault? What do you suggest?

    (I'm not going to address your tornado drill example because I'm sure you're not suggesting that sexual assault is some sort of force of nature that can't be controlled by the perpetrators. That seems far too close to the All Men Are Potential Rapists line, and I'm sure you don't want to promote that school of thought. I'm sure you believe, as I do, that all mentally competent adults are in control of their own actions and therefore shouldn't be compared to weather patterns.)

    No. Let's not talk about people's responsibility for their own safety. Let's talk about their responsibility for their own behaviour. Who's at fault in sexual assault cases? The person committing the assault. So let's talk about how to instruct THOSE people. Let's talk about how to make them take responsibility for not assaulting people. Have anything in mind?
     
  12. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    Whether or not you're in charge of these people is irrelevant.

    Correct about the tornadoes.

    And those things don't stop fires in movie theaters (or similar threats that would require the complete evacuation of the building), and they don't stop school shootings. Which is why personal responsibility for your own safety is still necessary.

    You're acting like you can't address both sides at the same time.

    I'm not interested in having the discussion through a flawed framework.

    Believe it or not, there are people out there who are malevolent, and commit the acts that they do not out of ignorance, but are completely aware of the fact that they are doing wrong. There isn't anything to teach them.
     
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  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I feel like I've got a pretty clear idea of your suggestions for how victims should behave. I think that side is pretty well covered. So, in the interests of addressing both sides at one time... what should we do to prevent sexual assaults? What should we do to make potential committers of assault behave more appropriately?
     
  14. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    Well, you said "let's not talk about personal responsibility for safety". This is a neo-feminist mantra, except replace "safety" with whatever you want.

    If what you'd meant to say was that you'd like to set it aside for the moment in the interest of coming at the problem from both sides, that's great.

    "What should we do to prevent sexual assaults?" There are things that both victims, perpetrators, and bystanders can ALL do.

    What should we do to make potential committers of assault behave more appropriately?

    Well, if facing potential consequences for breaking the law isn't enough, you'd have to start at the reason why assault happens in the first place. And there are many.

    But here's my caveat: everybody is capable of committing assault. Not just men. And teaching people to not commit assault isn't the panacea because it assumes the reason for assault is nothing other than ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Please, tell me more. But let's focus on the perpetrators, since this whole mess is their issue to begin with.

    Clearly the potential consequences for breaking the law are NOT enough, since sexual assault still happens really frequently. So, please, share the many reasons why sexual assault happens in the first place!


    ETA: I've got to go do some stuff and then go to bed, but I look forward to reading your response in the morning.
     
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  16. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    Alright, so I'll take it that we're not talking about assault in general, but specifically sexual assault (which is more relevant to the thread anyway; I probably should've figured).

    Clearly the potential consequences for breaking the law is not enough in *all* cases, yes. That's because laws don't only serve the function of deterring crime, but also punishment when the crime is inevitably committed.

    It's also worth mentioning that I think Minority Report is a great movie, but not a reality I would want to live in. I don't believe a type of crime, much less all crime, can be completely prevented. To think otherwise is to adhere to a dystopian notion that's mistaken for being utopian. This is why taking responsibility for your safety is necessary.

    I can start off by saying it probably isn't in ignorance of knowing that sexual assault is wrong, and simply telling people "don't do that" before-hand probably won't be enough. Maybe in a few cases though.

    It's way above my pay-grade and so I ought not try to explain it, as well as would really derail this thread. Nevertheless, research criminology theory.

    https://blog.udemy.com/criminology-theories/

    I'm sorry to disappoint you. Hope you had a good sleep. This has to be my response though, as I do believe the thread has now deviated far enough away from its source material. Perhaps it would make for another interesting thread about criminology and why people commit crime in general, regardless of what the crime may be.

    One thing I'll leave you with is encouraging people to get help if they're thinking about committing assault. I say this because figuring out the motive of a crime (when it doesn't turn out to be impossible) reveals just how complicated the motive for committing crime is, and how greatly it varies from perpetrator to perpetrator.

    This is similar to just how in depth and complex it can be for sorting out depression and anxiety. What led somebody to attempt suicide? Why do people have phobias? But for many people, therapy seems to help. Maybe encouraging people to go to therapy or seek life coach services or something if they're having violent thoughts, thinking about stealing, etc. could be a good way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  17. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll Loved by a Sweet lady. :) Contributor

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    What about this creeper?
    https://www.westernjournal.com/man-dressed-woman-arrested-filming-victim-ladies-bathroom/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=PostBottomSharingButtons&utm_content=2018-09-01&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons
     
  18. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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  19. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll Loved by a Sweet lady. :) Contributor

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    Doesn't strike me as the type to seek help before hand.
     
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  20. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

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    I didn't say all criminals are the type to seek help before-hand, so I don't know what point you're trying to make by quoting my response to Bayview. Sounds like this guy was too far down the path anyway; I was talking about people who might have lived an otherwise normal life, but things have taken a terrible turn and they're considering committing crime because they feel there are no other options.

    Therapy was a suggestion since I felt that just responding with "read about criminology theory" might seem like a half-hearted response, and like I didn't actually try. I'm sure therapy is not the only thing that can be tried.

    I'd be more interested to see what Bayview has to suggest, since she's the one who brought it up, if I'm not mistaken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  21. Some Guy

    Some Guy Slacrastinator Supporter

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    Hmm. So, at this point we've departed from OP to the following possibilities:
    Feminism is the champion/avenger against male crimes upon women?
    Rape is the reason feminism should exist?
    Any feminist is entitled to intervene in a person's thought process, or anticipated behavior, because of the offenese some men have committed against some women?
    Feminist claims are automatically the unanimous opinion of all women?
    Each feminist (or groups) should have control over the Laws Of The Land without being elected to a position of authority.
    No feminist should be held answerable for anything they say, because all men are assholes anyway?
    (yes, yes, I know I'm an asshole, but only because I was recently promoted from d...)

    Again, I'm writing a constitution and creating a government. I will at some point make some part of the discussion here a matter of Law, so be careful what you wish for.
    I challenge you all to offer a solution that can be enacted into law or at least policy.
    I promise I will post a result that is worthy of (brief?) discussion.
    (time to put our mouth where the money is)
     
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  22. mashers

    mashers Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Just catching up and have skimmed responses, so apologies if there is repetition of others' thoughts which I missed while reading.

    As @Some Guy says we have departed somewhat from the OP, but this seems fine as the discussion needed to move forward anyway. Women's safety is clearly a feminist issue, and people's safety in general is a social issue more widely. Yes the neo-feminist position on this would be that all men are responsible for all assaults on women, and I have already explained why this is not a view I share.

    The other neo-feminist view on sexual assault of women by men is that 'men should just stop assaulting women'. I would love to live in a world that operated this way, I really would. However, "this is objectively wrong, so people should stop doing it" doesn't work. People who sexually assault other people either already know it's wrong but do it anyway, or are so messed up that they don't know it's wrong so won't be told anyway. So saying "men should just stop assaulting women" just isn't a helpful response to the situation.

    Ultimately we are all responsible for our own safety, but I think we all have a responsibility to each other's safety. If I carry out risky behaviour then I have to accept there is a risk there, and take responsibility for the fact that I put myself in that situation. But that's not the same as being responsible for other people's behaviour towards me. And if I witness inappropriate behaviour from somebody else, I feel I have a responsibility to act in some way.
     
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  23. making tracks

    making tracks Active Member

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    Please can you directly quote where you got these points from with the context of the posts because I don't think anyone here has been arguing that.
     
  24. Some Guy

    Some Guy Slacrastinator Supporter

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    I posed these as questions about possibilities. It does seem like things are a bit askew from origin, which is fine, but where do y'all want it to go? I advocate a cohesive voice for women's issues, but it needs a cohesive message, or even a platform, so to speak. My story starts a new society by scrapping everything, including 5.7 billion random souls. So, a (willing) sacrifice like that deserves a well considered goal. If Judgement has been handed down upon the wicked, at the cost of the innocent, what do we do to honor that sacrifice? What if you had the attention of someone who was going to create your future? The question previously posed was, "What suggestions would you offer?" I now offer, to those who would take it, the position of Delegate Administrator for Social Policy. The position of Administrator (in Chief) is a life-sentence nightmare, and has been filled by the MC, poor bastard. You now have control of the direct suppression of individual human behavior. You may not interfere in human nature or evolution.
    What would you do? What do you want? I told you I was serious (about 200+ pages serious, so far).
    Ready... Go!!
     
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  25. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'd like to comment on the phrase "all men are potential rapists."
    It can be read in two ways, only one of which is true.

    1. All men are ready/willing to rape.
    This is obviously untrue since the vast majority of men don't want to rape anyone and most don't even enjoy role playing rape during consensual sex.

    2. From the perspective of an individual, all people, including men, are potentially criminals.
    This is factually correct simply because nobody is a mind-reader: whether it's a man, woman, or child walking behind you, they could be another regular pedestrian or a mugger, robber, serial killer, rapist, or anything else.

    I agree with everyone who are saying it's kinda pointless to tell men not to rape: boys are conditioned not to harm girls practically since birth, including telling them how and why rape and sexual assault and harassment are wrong, to the point where many men don't even defend themselves when assaulted by a woman, we have implemented measures to protect women on a societal scale like the Duluth-model etc, so yes, pretty much every man knows rape is wrong and evil, those who choose to rape simply don't care.
    Those who don't know it's wrong are so mentally restricted that they probably wouldn't even understand what you're saying.

    Because we can't control the actions of others, the only remaining option we have is controlling our own actions.
    There are various ways to make our lives safer, but the first thing we need to accept is that perfect safety is an illusion. Almost anything can happen at any time anywhere.

    We also need to ask the right questions. Rather than asking "how can I be safe" we should ask "how can I maximize my chances of avoiding harm with minimal effort and interference to my daily life?"
    We can learn about the various risks and how to counter them so we can make educated choices when to take calculated risks rather than blindly walk into dangerous situations we didn't anticipate.

    I could make an endless list of ways to improve your safety, but suffice to say, there are several simple, unobtrusive things you can do to significantly reduce most common risks, but that doesn't really fall under the topic of feminism and would be more suitable for a topic about self-protection (including behavioral patterns, "social self-defense," physical self-defense etc).

    Admitting it's entirely possible to increase personal safety =/= victim-blaming. Even if I drunk myself unconscious with my wallet in my hand in a bad neighborhood, nobody has the right to rob me, ergo the person who robs me bears 100% of the blame. However, that doesn't change the fact that I can affect the amount and quality of risks I face. That's what people mean when they say we're all responsible for our own safety.


    Btw, as someone who used to be one of the very few people who openly challenged some of the common feminist narratives a few years ago, it's weird seeing how the tables have turned. I can't say that I'm surprised because the proverbial pendulum was bound to swing this way eventually but I hope we can reduce its arc rather than keep extending it, which is what seems to be happening (I'm not referring to this thread but rather the changes in the overall zeitgeist in the western world).
    Since the previous push towards the far-left was so extreme, I fear the pendulum will visit the far-right before we have any hope of returning to the relative equilibrium we enjoyed around 2000-2010.

    Also, much as I dislike Sarkeesian, in her defense, her statement "everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic, and you have to point it all out" brought up earlier in the thread is taken out of context. She said she used to be one of those aggressive, confrontational feminists when she was younger, that that's when she used to say stuff like that, and that consequently she wasn't fun to be around. She was specifically calling an attitude like that annoying.

    Lastly, I saw some people talking about the gender earnings gap. There's a thing called the Nordic Gender Equality Paradox. Essentially it states that the freer a society is, the more drastic the differences between the career choices and interests of men and women. Here's a documentary about it where the guy making it interviews multiple scientists from various countries (yes, actual scientists in addition to some more... dogmatic individuals), and suffice to say, the results are intriguing:
     
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