1. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    Finding Cover in Battle

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Sclavus, Nov 10, 2017.

    If you're in the military and find yourself in combat in your hometown in the midst of a state of emergency during a plague, would you be keen on trusting someone who invites you to take shelter in their business?

    I've got a group of National Guard who are engaged by unknown hostile forces. There were twelve friendlies, and now there's seven, low on ammo and without communication gear. Their people ran off and left them in the chaos. The remaining seven don't have any immediately disconcerting injuries.

    About the only thing my MC can do for them is invite them inside his homeless shelter, which has mirrored bulletproof windows and brick walls. Realistically, would those soldiers accept the invitation inside? Once they get inside, the hostiles are going to attack the building, and the gunplay has already started to draw the attention of zombies in the area.

    If you were National Guard and got invited inside the shelter during a firefight, would you accept? What would your priorities be once you got inside? Would you leave immediately out the back door, or hunker down for a fight with the hostiles despite the civilian presence?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  2. archer88i

    archer88i Banned Contributor

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    For me, that decision would be entirely based on my own opinion of the building's tactical value. My biggest concern, given your description, would be the possibility that my unit would be caught in a fixed position and unable to exfiltrate while also lacking the necessary firepower to defend the position. Being low on ammunition, it is unlikely that I would choose to enter into any fixed position. But I'm not in the National Guard, and maybe Guard members don't think like me.

    My opinion here is based largely on my reading, which lately has encompassed primarily works on the French experience in the Indochine Peninsula during the 40s and 50s. They had a habit of getting themselves into fixed positions and then being overwhelmed because they hadn't brought enough rifles to keep out the bad guys. The United States Marine Corps did the same thing at Khe Sanh during the later American intervention in Vietnam, but the outcome there was wildly different: the Marines had the full support of the Army and Air Force, and they were never in any danger of running out of bullets--although there were times when they ran short on water.

    My guess, because you're writing a book, is that you're hunting an excuse for the soldiers to get caught in the building and surrounded by zombies? :)

    Here's the thing: the reader will believe almost anything as long as you give them a semi-convincing reason. ("Semi-convincing" meaning that it doesn't make them immediately roll their eyes and mutter, "Bullshit!") You can have the ranking member discuss the situation with whoever's number two and then have them become convinced that it's the right choice to make in this situation, and at that point you've pretty much got the reader in the bag. Worst case scenario, just give them something worth defending in the building so that they have some external reason to be there. Or maybe the building is the only safe place to be in that area, and they have to be in that specific area for some reason. Maybe it's across the street from Buck's Sporting Goods and they plan to hit it at first light and walk out with every box of .223 in the house?
     
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  3. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I would also say that whether or not to accept the invite would have to do with what else is available and escape routes. They certainly would not want to get pinned down in an inescapable room. You said they're low on ammo, so trying to hold of a siege sounds like a tall order. I see no reason not to trust this guy if it's just one civilian and you're seven armed soldiers, but rooftops seem like a better bet to me.
     
  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    tbh I doubt they'd wait to be invited - if you read books about FIBUA in iraq (sniper one for example) Allied forces are kicking in doors and running throgh houses left right and centre when engaged and outnumbered in firefights.
     
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  5. archer88i

    archer88i Banned Contributor

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    That's an excellent point. If it looks like a good idea, they prally ain't going to need someone else to suggest it.
     
  6. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    I've introduced this team of National Guard because it gives my protagonists a reason to have a dog in the fight. In the roughly twelve hours prior to this, my protagonists have been huddled down, abiding by government instructions and waiting for rescue as the city falls apart around their ears.

    Meanwhile my antagonists have been deployed under the nose of the government they ostensibly work for, but instead of rescuing civilians or putting down zombies, their job has been to target emergency personnel (like the National Guard). Their boss wants to disable emergency response capability.

    The antagonists engage the National Guard, but see an opportunity when they realize the homeless shelter is occupied. They have attracted Zed to the location with gunfire, and will then compromise the building's access points to document the damage the zombies cause. It's a field test for their boss' bioweapon. They'll stick around to make sure there aren't any survivors.

    I need the National Guard to get inside, the Hellions to attack the homeless shelter, then the zombies. Because no one's going to see the Hellions clearly until the zombies are neutralized, the Hellions will be able to pass themselves off as good guys, right up until they start executing civilians. That's when my protagonists will have to continue the fight, and they'll reach a point where retreat is the only feasible option.

    It introduces the protagonists and antagonists, and makes it so my protagonists can't just wait out the chaos in the shelter.
     
  7. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    If your protags are armed by this point (even with one rifle) you could have the guard get pinned down and jester come to their rescue with cover fire - sniping the machine gun that's pinning them down for example.

    Also unless the Zed are armed its going to be pretty obvious that the hellions are bad guys when they start shooting at the NG
     
  8. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    I'm toying with the idea of letting Jester out to play with a rifle, yes. So far, it's not really working to have the NG bust in or get let in without Vince helping them out first.

    As far as the Hellions maintaining obscurity, I'll play around with it, but I need a scenario in which Vincent sees Zagan (the Hellion leader) up close, then Zagan starts killing Vincent's people. Vincent is forced to retreat, and because he was wearing a balaclava to protect him from the cold, Zagan hasn't seen Vincent's face, but Vincent has seen Zagan's.
     
  9. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Also give that its in america why are the zombies Zed, sure that should be Zee
     
  10. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Maybe they were originally Canadian zombies eh?
     
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  11. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    I've only ever seen it as Zed for zombies regardless of the country, just like Jerry for Germans, Tommy for Brits, etc.
     
  12. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    You know that's a fair point; does anyone know where that comes from? Because yanks are so damn militant about their awful zee and yet it's always zed for zombie. Is it just because obviously you don't say the Z in Zombie as a Zee and thus it just sounds stupid? Or is it consonance or something?

    Or maybe just that zed is a better radio word; like it's a cleaner and more distinct word that's hard to confuse for other stuff? "Foxtrot Tango please confirm; you are being pursued by a pack of bees?"
     
  13. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    I'm pretty sure radio pronunciation has something to do with it, similar to "niner" for "nine" so as to not confuse it with "mine."

    At any rate, I've decided to have Vincent use his hunting rifle against the people shooting at his building, which attracts Zed. After somebody throws a grenade, the soldiers run inside, while the Hellions sit back and wait for Zed to do his thing. Unfortunately for them, Zed gets put down by Vincent et. al., so the Hellions (who have been dressed in National Guard uniforms) arrive to "save the day."

    Between the darkness and the distance, no one's had a close look at the Hellions until they arrive at the shelter after the zombie attack. After the Hellions start executing people, Vincent and Blair are forced to retreat, and thus begins the personal battle for Vincent against the Hellions.
     
  14. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    There's a million supposed reasons why radio chatter is the way it is and honestly I don't think a whole lot of them hold water. I find it slightly more plausible that NATO chose 'niner' to avoid conflicting with 'nein' than things like 'five sounds like fire' stuff, but not by much. Truth is that it's that way because that's how it is and it works so we leave it alone, but I suspect that this stuff was the result of someone at some point being concerned about confusion, making some suggestions and then saying that because there wasn't any confusion doing it his way that he had succeeded when there likely wasn't any before hand either. Not to say there isn't problems on radio with confusing stuff, just that I don't think either way really helps. Mistakes happen because the bloke listening just had an explosion go off by his head and can't hear right, or the line is so bad that the listener is just guessing. I don't buy that people kept hearing "five" on the radio and giving it loads into the bushes ahead of them.

    As for zed, well, yeah I have similar thoughts on that matter. Zed is just as bad as Zee for confusing things (dead, red, bread, spread vs bee, key, knee, tree). If this was a real radio you'd say Zulu or just Zombie. Zombie is a good radio word; it's one that certainly has actually been used in the past. "Zombie" used to mean "simulated enemy contact" so that if anyone is asleep or on the wrong channel they know that the contacts aren't enemies and shouldn't actually be shot at.
     
  15. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    Tonight, I took a look at the building that inspired my homeless shelter. Here's where the National Guard soldiers would be:

    [​IMG]

    And here's what they'd be looking at, albeit with more snow and in darkness:

    [​IMG]

    I'm going to put Jersey barriers along the sidewalks, and a machine gun with two automatic riflemen to flank the gunner on the roof of the building across the street from my soldiers. It's not going to be a sandbag position or anything, just three guys with guns on the roof.

    Further to the northwest on a much taller building, I'm going to have "sharpshooters" with M16s providing crossfire. There is a belfry about fifty feet above the shelter entrance, where Vincent will go to work with a Remington Model 700. Nothing fancy, but his longest shots will be 85 yards--not hard work for someone like Vincent.

    As for letting the National Guard into the shelter, I think I'll have the National Guard let themselves in. Vincent's counter-attack on the Hellions is going to allow the National Guard some time to work on getting in the doors. How they're going to get in, I don't know, because it's going to take more than breaching with a shotgun and kicking the door can do. Maybe I'll have them blow out a window on the ground level instead, because even with bullet-resistant glass, they could blow it out with a grenade pretty easily.
     
  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Vincent's major problem will be after his first shot the surviving hellions will saturate the belfry with fire ... even if it doesn't kill him it'll drive him down. Snipers only usually use static positions for a few shots for this reason - also being at close range is a disadvantage to him since hes within easy range of return fire

    In terms of getting in haven't the hellions already breached the doorways at the start of the battle with the intent of letting the zed in ? (also is it credible that a homeless shelter would be that well armoured)

    If I was in the NG position and facing MGs and autorifle fire I wouldn't be crossing a boig open space to get to the building opposite with just one sniper covering .... my inclination would be to smash my way into the building to my rear and shelter there
     
  17. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Definitely a good point, although not one that you can't deal with. Remember that it's really hard to hear a shot and know exactly where it came from, especially if there are other tall buildings around to make the shot echo. This is actually one of the big reasons why you see snipers using silencers a lot, not because they make the shot silent, but because they make it less loud. Going from 120dB to 100dB is actually a big deal when you're talking about carrying over hundreds of yards, and when it's a less distinct crack it's much harder to figure out where it came from.

    And of course if Vinnie the sniper can create a little cover noise for himself he could easily get off a dozen shots before people actually figure out what is happening. Doesn't have to be something super dramatic, just something loud that is close by. If, for example, he was shooting down to them as there are vehicles pulling up or generators or similar. Or if he starts shooting while people are building baracades or some such, well they were already hearing loud bangs you know?

    Of course his best bet would be to time his attack so that the people being shot at are also shooting too. If you've ever fired a gun without ear protection on (as you have to in combat) then you know it's hellishly loud, and with other people also giving it loads in the same room, yeah not a chance they can pick out the sniper shots. It'll take them seeing a couple of people drop and die, and see they are bullet wounds just to figure out they are getting shot at. And then they still have to figure out where the shots are coming from and by then Vinne G can be somewhere new or already be in their face with a bit of rusty tin dipped in Tabasco or whatever he is going to give them the good news with.

    Suffice to say; it's a soluble problem. Personally, I would have Vincent lay a trail of blood or similar (whatever it is that attracts zombies) and bait a pack of them to attack the same place just as he starts shooting. That would create both a lot of noise as the NG deal with them, and some panic and adrenaline. Just the rucus of having to defend themselves would make it really hard to figure out what's going on. Negligent discharges happen, you know? So does shrapnel, so does lots of stuff. Seeing someone get hit next to you when there's lots of gunfire going on from your side doesn't immediately scream sniper. And that'd give the MC all the cover he needs to shoot the key people and then either vanish or get up close and personal, as required.
     
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  18. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I am inclined to agree that they would not wait to be invited to cover, but
    rather take it by any means they deem fit to do so. Also I doubt they would
    be fighting an undefined enemy, since they know that it has to be either
    Zombie or Human (Unless you have an Alien invasion hit at some point
    during the battle against endless hordes of the undead, and violent people
    putting down any and all threats or people for supplies and what not.
    The unknown element would hinge largely on something that should not
    exist within the standard construct of their day to day operations. That is
    how you get the unknown enemy, because it is not clearly definable with
    in the normal circumstance of what already exists.
    So even if you have a rogue milita or gang running around protecting their
    territory, they would still be a 'known' threat.
     
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  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    On the wider point I'd highly recommend watching some documentaries and good war films to get an idea about the chaos of combat - its not all nice and orderly with one thing happening at a time. That's going to be even truer when you've got three or four different groups shooting at the same time.

    In this situation if you are an NG pinned down by Hellion fire, and with a Zed threat to deal with and wondering WTF is going on, you aren't going to immediately trust some guy who pops up and waves you into a building across the street (especially if he's dressed as a penguin), in fact he'd be lucky if they didn't light him up.
     

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