1. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,770
    Location:
    Rhode Island

    A little blurb on info-dumps

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Homer Potvin, Mar 20, 2017.

    Came across this today and thought I'd share it.

    http://its-a-writer-thing.tumblr.com/tagged/iawt

    It's a little ditty on how to hide info dumps.

    ETA: I copied and pasted the post here because I think the link will get lost once more posts are added.


    Quick Tip: Making Characters Info Dump Without Seeming Like They’re Info-Dumping
    The Tip: REFERENCE information with their OPINION being the focus. Never “tell” information, while not showing an opinion.

    • Why and How it Works:
    Show of hands; how much do you hate when characters tell other characters things they already know, just because the reader doesn’t know (and needs to know)? Sometimes there’s information that needs to be shared with the reader and there’s no other way to do it but by SAYING it.

    Here’s how to dodge the problem.

    Imagine you and your friend are characters. You and your friend just watched a movie together. When talking about it, you wouldn’t “tell” them what happened – you’d reference it.

    Example:

    “It was an awesome movie. That scene where Harlock swishes his cape and pulls out a huge sword that’s actually a gun, kills three soldiers, and then moves down the hall to take down the others; that was so cool!”

    Vs.

    “In Harlock Space Pirates, there’s this scene where he swishes his cape and pulls out a huge sword that’s actually a gun, kills three soldiers, and then moves down the hall to take down the others.”

    The reader now knows what happened in the movie, but the characters didn’t need to explain it to each other like its new information.

    In real dialogue, people REFERENCE shared knowledge. They never “tell” it. If they “tell” it, it’s insulting and the person they’re talking to will be insulted, because you’re essentially saying they’re dumb.

    Here’s the Kicker That Makes it Work - Opinions:

    What your friend already has is the information. What your friend doesn’t have yet is your view on things. What you’re really giving your friend is an opinion – but what you’re giving the reader is information. Have your characters assess the information and give their thoughts, opinions, feelings, etc. on it in the same breath – rather than just saying it. As a bonus, this is fantastic for showing your character’s personality.

    Pro Tip:

    The opinion doesn’t need to be long. It can be as simple as “that was cool!” or “it was evil but it was damn smart.” The end. That’s the opinion. You got all that info to the reader and your character doesn’t look dumb or mean.
     
  2. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    427
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    :agreed:
     
  3. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    1,724
    Location:
    Texas
    I like this idea. Another way to do it that I tend to use is to explain something by having one character teach another about it. A quick example from my current WIP:

    Kaelie lay back against the pillows, the first traces of lethargy creeping up on her.

    “Tell me about Wild Talents,” she said sleepily.

    Evalynne raised her brows, but nodded.

    “All right. Let’s see. Wild Talents are unpredictable forms of magic that sometimes appear in people who have mage or wizarding blood in their family. Now, Valaria does not spawn many mages or wizards. Scholars think that is because they use High Magic, and the majority of Valaria’s High Magic is concentrated in the Wyldwood Beast Preserve. That’s why those Beasts thrive there- they flourish in the High Magic. On the contrary, Esharia, our neighbor to the east, has quite a lot of High Magic floating around. You may have heard of the Wizards of Esharia?”

    Kaelie nodded sleepily.

    “They and the mages, who are rarer, use High Magic. The mages can see it and therefore use it pure. The wizards, who are the most common magic users, cannot see High Magic, only sense it. They use special stones, called aumyrs, to collect the magic and filter it into a staff. They can then use the magic through spoken or written spells, which allows them to ‘see’ the magic.” Evalynne waved a hand. “I’m getting off subject. Anyway. No one seems to know what prompts the manifestation of a Wild Talent. But we do know they never appear outside of families with wizard or mage blood. There are six discovered forms of Wild Talent so far.” Evalynne ticked them off on her fingers as she explained. “You just experienced one of them- Healing-Talent. Your mother had Animal-Talent, an affinity with all animals and the ability to speak to most. There is also Cure-Talent, which is the ability to cure diseases at a touch, Energy-Talent, the ability to restore a person’s energy to full strength, Emotion-Talent, the ability to sense and manipulate people’s emotions, and Seer-Talent. Seers have visions of the future and sometimes will give us prophesies. All the Talents are extraordinarily rare. I only know of two other Healers, for example—one is at Gryphon’s Rest and the other works for the king.”

    Kaelie smiled languidly. “You sound like you swallowed the textbook,” she teased.

    Evalynne flushed. “I find magic fascinating,” she said. “I’ve done a lot of reading on it. One day I want to visit Esharia and see the fabled Mage’s College. It sounds amazing.”




    And boom. Magic system explained, (hopefully) without it sounding like a massive info-dump from the narrator.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    You're trying very hard no to sound info-dumpish, but sadly I am reading it as an info dump.
     
    rincewind31 and Homer Potvin like this.
  5. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,770
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    I agree. This isn't a naked info-dump but the conversational "Daddy, what's a (blank)" kind of info-dump, which is the next rung up on the ladder. We the reader clearly feel that this information is being spoken directly to us instead of to the character who posed the question.
     
  6. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    1,724
    Location:
    Texas
    ....dang it. And here I thought I was being clever.

    Y'all are a serious buzz-kill.

    J/k. I appreciate the feedback, I do. I'm just bummed bc now I need to go back and figure out how to do it better.
     
  7. Homewriting

    Homewriting New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Home
    This actually helps me out a lot since I have a problem with info dumping information in my world. Especially at the beginning.
     
  8. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,770
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Haha. Yeah, it's tough. I've never once written anything without a massive info-dump in the first go-round. The trick is to fool or distract the reader into thinking they're following action when they're really absorbing exposition. Are your characters in bed here or on a couch or something? Kaelie not only nods but says something "sleepily" (and later "languidly") so there's nothing happening in the background to make us think we're not listening to a lecture. If they were doing something else you might be able to hide the dump a little better. Also, is it important that we have all this information given to us at once? Have we seen the magic yet? Do we need to know exactly how it works to understand why the magic is important in the context of the scene in which it has been portrayed? The timing of the dump is very important. I don't know if you remember when The Matrix was released in theaters (1999?) but the logline for the movie was "What is the Matrix?" and every preview or advert used that in some way. Figuring out what the matrix was was the main gag of the movie, and by the time Morpheus info-dumps on Keanu (whose expression probably never changes) we've already seen all the crazy "magical" shit and have some context and point of reference.
     
    izzybot and Stormsong07 like this.
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    As @Homer Potvin says, have something else happening--the lack of activity makes it clear that the scene is about the information.

    And don't try to communicate all of the information in one scene, and especially not one dialogue paragraph.

    And don't tell the reader what they already know--it seems clear that the Healing and the Animal Talent are already established facts, and if High Magic versus Wild Talents wasn't already addressed before you got here, it could be.

    And use less formal language.

    I'd suggest that this entire conversation could be about Kaelie's mother--some nostalgia, some griping--and touch on the Animal Talent since that's tied to her mother. That's enough of an info load for this scene.
     
    Stormsong07 and Homer Potvin like this.
  10. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    1,724
    Location:
    Texas
    So I was browsing Google search results for "how to avoid info dump in fantasy" and came across a rather brilliant explanation that I'd like to paraphrase for you all...

    Imagine you have a guest over who doesn't know anything about electricity. They are standing in your dark living room next to the light switch and ask about getting some light in the room. Would you tell them all about the history of electricity, how it was invented, how it runs through wires, and what it all powers right then? Or would you tell them to just flip the little switch next to them? Of course they would have questions, but seeing as they don't have the knowledge about how it works, the questions wouldn't be too in-depth at that time.
    Later on, perhaps the next day, as you're out getting the mail, you might point up to the power lines and explain how electricity runs through them.
    Then as you're making dinner, you might talk to him about how electricity powers the stove.
    And so on.

    I don't know about you guys, but this really helped put things in perspective for me. I know it's essentially what you all were saying, but this really helped me see and understand it better, so I thought I'd share.
     
    izzybot and Homer Potvin like this.
  11. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    262
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Yeah, the example sounds like they're just replacing a blatant infodump with a Maid And Butler conversation. I'm not sure it's much better. Sometimes you just have to leave out the info.

    In one of my stories, I was satisfied by constructing a narrator who would interrupt the action to infodump, because that was his reason for existence. But not all stories lend themselves to a periodic external narrator, as it interrupts action, and anyway, the narrator's relationship has to be explained on top of everything, which is another infodump.

    I've been experimenting with anonymous narrator via Terry-Pratchett style footnotes. In the right story, I think it has promise, because there are other things you can do with it aside from infodumps.

    eg:

    "Let's Go!" Bob shouted, raising his sword.
    "Hurrah!" They cheered, following Bob up and over the side of the ditch, and into the melee, "We'll tell our grandchildren about this glorious day!" (1)


    (1) Well, they didn't end up telling anybody about this. Because they all died. Especially Bob, who died in a particularly embarrassing way: his sword blade detached from the hilt and landing point-side down through his foot, effectively nailing him to the ground where he was easy pickings for the seven year old daughter of the Barbarian queen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    NoGoodNobu and ChickenFreak like this.
  12. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    1,975
    Footnotes are some of my favourite things. I find so many that are hilarious

    First one is just an image circulating on the interwebs that I do not know the textbook of origin

    The second is from one of the books of the Bartimaeus Series by Jonathan Stroud (the series has an obscene amount of humourous footnotes).

    2B505571-5358-475D-A334-BF2BE2FEF4B2-1668-00000249DD4776AD.jpeg 6D8D64B1-FA6D-4CFD-87A9-07C15D70B7BF-1668-0000024A1770411B.png
     
    izzybot and Homer Potvin like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice