Friend gave hurtful advice. Thoughts, please?

I am not exactly sure if this relates at all and I admit I kind of got a similar impression from a poem of yours I just reviewed. But, I will state something of a personal experience.

A while ago, I was confronted with some serious criticism not in relation to my work but in my overall life. Someone told me that I like to hide behind flowered, intellectual words as a subconscious way to make myself seem smarter then I really am. All it did was show that I am much less intelligent then I appear and not only do my words complicate themselves but my personality gets lost in translation. Instead of communicating how I felt, I tried describing it in a way that would impress someone. And it was very hard to hear considering I have always thought of myself as intelligent, not more so then others, but intelligent none the less. Needless to say I was humiliated when I heard it the first time. Thankfully, I did not react emotionally and I took it in stride but I struggled with that perception for a time. After i brought my awareness to it and studied that part of myself, I found out that persons words were true and I robbed people of a chance to get to know me by overcomplicating my words for whatever reason. I was not real. I was completely and utterly fake in presentation even if it was subconscious. If i wanted connection with others, true connection, I had to be real. I had to get to the point. I had to show them me and who I was and not some flowery metaphor regarding what I thought of something or an explanation within the present conversation.
Anyways, I do not think you should dismiss what your friend said because your feelings are hurt. True awareness comes from objectivity and when we are clouded with emotions and feelings we have a tendency to not see and learn from the experience. Meditation is a tool used to clear ones mind, to detach from reality in order to look at something with a sense of clarity, UNbiased clarity, for example.

My advice? Take it in stride, there may be credit to what he was saying and your emotions and your trust within your friend/hurt feelings prevented you from seeing it. I am sure he was not doing it maliciously and if he was he is a dick, but however he presented it, do not ignore it. Maybe there is a reason he said what he said, and above all, you should be excited because it can strengthen your work dramatically. I know my experience has made me a much better person today and much more real.


-Ghost

 

Something I learned in a writing workshop in college was to do three good and three bad things about the story. Of course you can ask for more... But, for every bad thing the reader finds, he should also write something good about the story.
And, nothing you write is ever a waste of time. I constantly have to remind myself of that. I published in high school, and the story (to me) wasn't very good, reading it now. I put myself down sometimes about it, but then I remember that if I hadn't written it then, I would be writing stuff like that now. You'll learn, gain experience, and get better over time. I'm not saying what you wrote is bad, but you can always improve. Look at the size of the Harry Potter books for example. They grew considerably as Rowling wrote each one. That's EXPERIENCE.
As for your friend's comments, I don't know exactly what he said or how he said it, but I do have a few points:
- If he's a good friend, he might think he's being helpful by being honest. If you simply asked "what do you think", you didn't ask for anything specific.
- He might not like the plot. I had my brother read a story of mine once, and he said it was bad. When I asked him why, he said he didn't like that genre. End of story. Some people just don't like to read certain stories.
- He's just one person. Ask other people to read it, and ask for specifics (3 good, 3 bad...). If it's your style of writing, there's not much you can change. If you aren't comfortable writing another way, then don't. Your style is your own, and your friend's comments shouldn't change that. Don't forget, Rowling submitted to several publishers who "didn't like her work." She showed them!

 

Sorry to hear you had a disheartening experience. It hurts sometimes.

If you'll permit me to offer advice on the two paragraphs you wrote: You do use a lot of adjectives and adverbs but in my opinion, its not the quantity that's the problem. Simply put, adverbs and adjectives alter the cadence of a sentence. Try reading each sentence aloud, by itself. (I've used this technique to edit my own work and received some praise for the results.) Then take out all the adjectives and adverbs and read the sentence again. Consider the rhythm and pace the sentence needs to have to carry the story best, then add back in the words that fit within the cadence. It's hard to explain, it makes more sense if you do it out loud.

eg. In the paragraph I just wrote, the cadence of the following sentence is VERY noticeable:

Listen to what happens when I add in some description.

Which one is stronger? That depends on your intent. In the first sentence above my intent was to nail home the key point. So simple is better. But if my intent had been to create atmosphere, the quick, punchy tone of the first sentence wouldn't work.

Try reading your work aloud and considering the cadence of every sentence. It can help.

 

I don't disagree that it's good to try to present a positive note as well as the negatives. But remember, this thread is about dealing with receiving a harsh critique.

You don't get to choose how someone will write their critique. And I admit, sometimes I get so caught up in trying to find the most significant areas of improvement I forget to apply the salve.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't bother with a critique at all if I didn't think there was something there to begin with. I don't get my jollies by kicking puppies.

I've received critiques from people who simply have an axe to grind. If all they say is "This sucks, and your mama's an ugly ho'", I simply write it off as an ignorant troglodyte with more free time than imagination. But if they try to poke you where it hurts, they probably do a better job of trying to find the weaknesses in your writing than your best friends will. So listen to what they say, and look for the truth in their attempts at cruelty.

If someone is trying to be helpful, and you have a chance to question them further, try to narrow them down on the specifrics. Listen to what they say, but don't assume the problems they home in on are the root causes. For example, they might have the wrong idea abourt what your character is doing, so something ambiguous in a previous scene may have set them on the wrong track.

 

This is something I've seen with a lot of critiques - the author doesn't ask questions. Not referring specifically to the OP, but I've seen people get hurt or angry or simply be totally confused by a 'curt' response - and they just decide to ignore it. Others ask for more details - and find that, yes, indeed, there is something more to the comment. And many times, it's a valid and eye-opening issue.

It's as my mother used to say - You won't know if you don't ask.

 

Hello Ghost. Thank you for taking the time to read my other poem and this thread. I appreciate the time you put into your responses as I know your time is very valuable.

I guess that is a similar experience, but I'm shocked that that person would've made such a bold comment about your life and who you are. Obviously I don't know who the person was to you or what gave him that idea, but I don't think he (or any person) has a right to made such a broad statement about a person's life and claim to know the reason behind why a person chooses to live. Even if he was a psychiatrist, he had no right to judge you in such a way. This is just my opinion.

I do NOT think, at all, that I'm trying to make myself "seem more intelligent" than I really am, which is what I think you're getting at but I'm not sure. I don't even think I'm intelligent, at least not more than most people. I don't speak the way I write so maybe that's the difference, but I take a lot of time and effort to try and make my writing dramatic. I guess in this particular case it backfired. I learned that I'm approaching it the wrong way, and I've come to terms with that.

However, I'd be incredibly foolish to take what he said to an even more personal level and attach even more of a stigma to what he said. My friend is blunt, but it was just my writing we were talking about. I'm not going to sit here and ask myself if there's some kind of underlying reason of why I chose to write that way, because I don't think that it has to do with a subconscious identity crisis or whatever. I honestly just thought that the way I wrote my story (and the poem) sounded good at the time. That's all there is to it.

Anyway I'm sorry if you had to go through that. I admire your clarity, acceptance, and lack of pride. Clearly I just had a big ego that kept me from seeing the flaws. But boy I was humbled!

 

Hello naturemage. Thank you for the comforting words. I've also learned about the 3 good, 3 bad. Most of the time when I critique another person's work I just do 1 good, 1 bad though. You've made some great points that I will consider from now when thinking about criticism.

In this particular case I think my friend may be right however. I'm sad to admit it but after seeing all of these assessments they pretty much echo what my friend said. The only difference is though that the people here said it in a much nicer and more patient way. Instead of just giving my writing a stamp of hate like my friend did, they actually took the time to explain why they felt that way.

Even though the advice I've been IS eye opening, the way others have presented their critiques doesn't make it seem so hurtful. I actually feel a lot better knowing where I need to work on.

Thank you especially for the JK Rowling words of wisdom. I'm definitely one of her fans despite what a lot of people say. I guess writing is all just relative. I will still fix where I need to though. Everyone here has given me such valuable advice, including you.

 

Hello again, TDFuhringer. Thank you for your advice and the examples. I love examples that work.

I think I'm just really confused about writing. I spent a lot of time as a kid role-playing (it's actually how I met my friend) and at the time I was surrounded by a lot of hardcore fantasy and science fiction buffs who used a lot of adjectives and adverbs. I spent six years with this clique and RP'd and wrote at the same time. I also really thought they were good too, so I started to emulate them until I developed a 'voice' of my own. Looking back I realize though that we all deliberately tried to lengthen our 'posts' because a lot of the more "skilled" players at the time wouldn't even give us the time of day if we couldn't do X number of posts. Hm, I guess now I know why my writing is so verbose, huh?

See, I just learned about another bad habit I need to kick. This is awesome. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

I think what I need to work on is varying my sentences. The first example was more effective for your intent. The second seems to be what I'm doing throughout my story which is fine like you said, but I need to be more selective. I need to put more thought into my sentences.

Thank you again for your advice. It's given me even more food for thought.

 

You are most welcome.

 

Hello Cogito. Thank you for that amazing 'troglodyte' and for the 'salve'.

After reading everyone's advice on here and sleeping over it, I feel much better about what he said. Even if revealed a really big flaw in my writing, I still feel optimistic now that I know what to fix. I agree with you that he was genuinely trying to help me by looking harder than other people have. I am very thankful of him now.

He's supposed to call me back in a bit so I will let you know what he says. I asked him for specifics yesterday but he gave me a "this entire thing is an example!!!" which obviously wasn't a very helpful response. Hopefully this time I'll get something I can work with.

 

This thread has been enlightening.

I don't think you have to revamp your whole writing style. It sounded like your friend said something like that. I agree with most of the critiques given here, and I think that amounts to paring down of adjectives etc., not throwing everything out and starting over. Anyway, I don't see how one could throw out their style and adopt a whole new one, because everyone already has their own voice. The trick is to find, clarify and enhance that voice. Your writing voice already exists, it just has to be excavated well, like a fossil.

 

Hi again, shadowwalker, thank you for this. I admit in the past I usually didn't ask too many questions. Most of the time though the advice I received were clear and the red ink was pretty easy to follow.

To be honest, his criticism was the BIGGEST eye opener I've ever received, so I was just taken aback. That's mostly because in the past I didn't seek out help as much, so I was expecting/used to the usual SPaG comments. Sometimes people would go an extra step and tell to move some stuff around or cut words here and there out, but no one had ever told me what he did before.

When I asked him last night to give me an example or explain, he basically just told me "this entire thing is an example" which wasn't very helpful. At the time I felt he was just being a jerk, but I think he's just blunt and decided to give me a blunt answer. I'm waiting on a call from him in the next few minutes so hopefully he'll be more helpful.

I will definitely ask more questions from now on though, if just to avoid the head and heartache.

 

Hi joanna. I agree with you. I'm actually embarrassed by my emotional response now that things are more clear, even though I'd probably still be emotional and sad if not for everyone's help on here.

And thank you so much for that. It really felt like he told me to start over and re-learn how to write.

Exactly how I feel. I made a list of some writing goals that I need to work on (cutting down on adverbs and adjectives, trimming the excess, etc) but I really like what you said here. It helps me visualize what I need to do.

 

I have to second joanna. Your writing voice is heavy with description. No need to change that. You just need to find a way to make your voice stronger and easier to listen to, or in this case, read.

When I'm writing a first draft, most people would be shocked by how dry it is. Stephen King said some writers are "Putter-Inners" and some writers are "Taker-Outers". Neither is wrong. Neither is better. I tend to be a "Putter-Inner". I write very tight and then open it up during the revisions. I'm willing to bet your first drafts are anything but dry. You are full of description. And that's wonderful. Trimming the excess is always good practice, but don't completely change your voice.

 

Ahhh, I love Stephen King. That's great advice and interesting information. I am definitely on the opposite side of the camp (or however that saying goes). I'm a trimmer or "take-outer" as he calls us. I think it's a habit I picked up during my old role-playing days and in school papers where they tell you to write 5,000 words or whatever. An old teacher of mine told me that if I didn't know what word to use, use two in my draft just so I can move on, but come back to that spot later and fix it. I know that's why I use so many darn adjectives.

As for the adverbs, I really don't know why I use so many of those.

 

That's not how it sounds to me. It sounds like he's saying that you're _over_ using your skills.

To switch to another craft, I've been sewing lately. I'm acquiring skills. Let's say that I learn how to do beaded embroidery, and I do it well. I sew a gorgeous plain white silk blouse, one that cries out to be appreciated for its simple uncluttered flowing lines, and I slap a bunch of beaded embroidery all over it. The blouse may be great. The embroidery may be great. But the embroidery on the blouse is a poor combination of two well-developed skills.

I don't know exactly what the issue is, but what he said would be consistent with a situation where you had developed good skills with complex sentences, and a wide vocabulary, and other skills that have a role in writing, but that you may be overusing those skills and using them to 'decorate' in places where plain simple writing is a better choice. That doesn't mean that you haven't developed a lot of good writing skills, any more than the ruined blouse means that I can't sew or can't embroider. It means that you just need to now acquire the skill of knowing when to apply which skills.

Edited to add: OK, I missed the later posts of the thread and your example. Seeing that example, I'd say, yes: There's embroidery there. Finely executed high-quality embroidery, showing good skill, but there's too much of it. You've developed your skills to the point that the next skill to develop, IMO, is learning what flourishes to remove and where the surviving flourishes will give the most impact.

ChickenFreak

 

Note: This forum is for discussion of critiquing techniques. Actual critique is only permitted in the Writing Workshop.

 

Sorry Cogito. Didn't know that.

 

Cogito, my apologies.

TDFuhringer, sorry about that. Thank you for the invaluable advice.

 

No worries.

 

ChickenFreak, wow! Thank you so much for this.

Your sewing example really helped clear things up for me, and it was said so tactfully and nicely. Thank you for that.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, and actually after just talking to my friend again it echoes his sentiments perfectly. I guess he's just more blunt and didn't know how to explain his thoughts the way others here have.

I feel much better. Now I don't feel like I just suck at writing or that I just spent the last x years learning how to write badly. I have a clear goal thanks to you and everyone here. I'm also not as confused. What you said is absolutely perfect and I appreciate the time and consideration you've given me.

 

We put our works away for a time for perspective, and I think time also helps in softening a harsh critique. The harshest critiques I have ever received were from someone close to me, and because of it I've decided not to share any of my writing with that person. I realized, over time, that this person's critiques had nothing to do with my work, but were purely self-centered outlets from an inflated ego. Kind-of bizarre. Even so, I still seek honest appraisals and have slowly been learning not to defend my work when other people (who actually do mean well) review my work. I think that listening to and weighing criticism is a skill in itself.

You seem to really look up to your friend. I think it's awesome that you wanted to clarify with him what he meant, but it sounded like in your reply #37 that he blew you off. I'd think your friend would have known you long enough to be familiar with your voice and your writing style. Perhaps he's just been having a rough time of things lately and projected this into his review of your work, kind of like my awful reviewer used to do? What do you think you'll do now? You've gotten a lot of great feedback from the wf members already; I hope you do experiment with their advise and see how the changes can affect your work.

 

Hi,

First up, welcome to the world of writing. We all have thin skins when it comes to our work.Our stories are like our babies, and no parent would ever be able to hear a harsh word said about their darling bub. I'm sure your friend was trying to be helpful, but perhaps a little less good at explaining what he meant then he might have been.

As to your short excerpt I'll just make a few quick comments:


The newborn’s deafening cry sent a reverberating echo throughout The Swan’s dark and empty halls.
An echo is in fact a reverberation, so you've actually said an echoing echo or its equivalent.


A dim artificial light and the occasional blinking of computer diodes illuminated the small, chemical smelling room and reflected dully off of the cold hard surfaces of the science laboratory’s medical apparatus.
I'd agree with the others, LED's works better. Also a chemical smelling room? I think you really mean a room that stank of chemicals. Lastly there's a problem with the ownership of the reflection. You mean that the light from a dim florouescent and some LED's reflected off the cold hard surfaces. As you've written it, it sounds like the light itself (as in the physical object) reflected off the surfaces.

There was nothing warm or welcoming about this place. But of course how could it be?
The only thing I would change here is the 'it' to a 'there'.

This space vessel belonged to LEDA (the Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation), and more specifically, this was Dr. Valerie Adler’s lab. I like this. It indirectly tells me a lot about the doctor who it seems is a cold fish.

An attractive and unemotional blonde-haired woman in a white lab coat was carefully and tensely examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in her left hand and a blunt prodding tool in the right.
As the others have said too many adjectives. Also they don't go together perfectly. For a start unemotional is generally not considered an attractive quality. So I'd suggest changing that to 'An attractive but cool (or similar) blond in a lab coat.' Also if she was unemotional then how can she be tense? The next part might read better as ' - was carefully examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in one hand and a prod in the other.' Then you might want to add a short sentence as to how she seemed slightly tense as she worked or similar.


The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s steady breathing and the rhythmic beeping of health monitors. This is good but I think it should be 'the' health monitors. I'm assuming the 'again' refers to events that occurred before I started reading this excerpt.



When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered, she discarded the flashlight and tool and peeled off the latex gloves. Everything seemed to be going according to plan. I don't think confident is the rightword to use here. At a guess I think you mean satisfied. The tool is probably a prod, and she peeled off 'her' latex gloves.


Overall I liked where this was going but I thought it was too hurried, trying to do too much with too few words, which is why there seem to be two adjectives to describe everything. Feel free to linger a bit longer in your descriptions would be my advice.

I hope that helps and you feel it was constructive. I would also add that there is a critique thread for short stories and books etc in this fora, and I'd suggest using it. At least that way not only will you be getting a range of advice, but the people giving it won't have emotional ties to you, so they can be more honest and you don't have to be confused that friendship and critique are being mixed up together. Your friend is still your friend but I don't think he's the ideal person to do your critique simple because of that closeness.

Cheers, Greg.

 

No of course not. I was not saying you were acting more intelligent then you think you are. I do think your message gets lost with over-dramatic/flowery writing when you could get to the point and leave MUCH more of an impact with your reader.
Anyway my experience and my point was, I received harsh/humiliating critique from a friend who brought something to my awareness that became extremely beneficial. Not only did I apply it but he was appallingly right and he was trying to help me. 100% Writers should know this better than anyone because our work excels when its put under the microscope and torn apart bit by bit. The only way we progress is if we take the time to find every intricate problem down to the last word and do it through a series of people to find the inconsistencies or consistencies and expand on them.
And personally I disagree I think people are entitled to their opinions and can speak there mind whenever they want to. That doesn't mean they are right or wrong. If were to walk around and tell people how they shouldn't speak then I would be wrong as well. The point is, I was able to learn from the critique, regardless of how harsh it was and that we shouldn't shoot down things just because they hurt our feelings. Sometimes things hurt our feelings because deep down we know that its true. When showing people your work, make sure you are emotionally detached from the piece before hand otherwise you will not be able to accept any negative feed back what so ever and negative feedback is what we should WANT imo.



-Ghost

 

Hi again Ghost.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree about the judgment thing. It's just recently I had an experience where my mom and I were at her company party and my mom was wearing some nice earrings my dad had bought her. One of her female coworkers (you know how catty we can be) commented and basically told my mom that the earrings outclassed her and that she shouldn't wear them anymore. And trust me when I say she wasn't trying to be nice, at all. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's not always appropriate to tell people what you think about them--unless they asked, of course, or that person needs an intervention for some reason. Anyway, moving on.

I wasn't really going to discount my friend's advice just because it was mean. I just wasn't sure what it meant and had no idea at first if it was even constructive or just him being a jerk. Because of my emotional attachment and my lack of experience I honestly did misinterpret his intentions/meaning, which is why I asked for help on trying to discern if it was even helpful advice.

You're absolutely right though. Harsh advice is the best, as long as it's constructive and well explained. I just felt like a bomb had been dropped on me without any kind of explanation. I will have to work on thickening my skin for the next time.

Also, thanks again for all your input. It is very much appreciated.