1. vampie

    vampie New Member

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    Gary Stu or not?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by vampie, Mar 2, 2020.

    Greetings, everyone! The other day, I made a thread about the story I'm currently working on. It is basically about a universe of some unusual vampires who are not immortal and don't need blood for survival purposes. The comments I received helped a lot. This time, my question concerns my protagonist. I gathered some information of my lil baby idiot, pretty much everything that I could include without spoiling the story for potential readers. His name is Joseph and I was wondering if he's a Gary Stu in any way; the last thing I'd want is creating one more overpowered perfect protagonist. Anyway, enough babbling, here is his info:

    · 20 years old.

    · Vampire.

    · 190 cm, 60 kg.

    · Blood type B negative.

    · Long straight brown hair and light blue eyes.

    · University student, in his 3rd year.

    · Was named after his maternal grandfather.

    · Used to date a younger girl (former aristocrat) for 3 years, who turned abusive towards him.

    · Now likes his new professor and counselor.

    · Has been best friends with another university student since his first year of school.

    · His other two friends are two male twins.

    · Has a younger brother in his last year of school.

    · Lives at home with his parents and brother.

    · Interested in arts.

    · Not physically strong.

    · One of the best students in his grade.

    · Has an academic rival (the best student in the university).

    · Sensitive to alcohol.

    · The only one amongst his parents and brother to not have the special ability of sun tolerance.

    · Has not discovered his own special ability yet.

    · Needs counseling because of the inability to control his behavior, which includes being too blunt and rude with everyone, including teachers.

    · Was counseled by the university principal who quitted on him, because they could not tolerate each other.

    · Has been hated by the principal since the first time they met.

    · Some of his bad behaviors are a result of the abuse in his former relationship.

    · Storywriter, had written a book with his former partner, which she burnt due to a moment of rage.

    · His favorite color is red and his favorite stone is ruby.

    · Drinks more blood than most vampires, sometimes uses it as a supplement for food (which has become an uncommon habit in the past years for everyone in his universe).

    · Has never been in heat or mated before, unlike most males in his age, though he has tried (basically a virgin). He is still unsure how the mating process even works.

    · On the fence about breeding.

    · Could be considered a rebellious character, though he lacks maturity.

    · Due to this lack of maturity, he tends to get jealous and possessive easily and is also stubborn, impatient and lacks the knowledge of social cues.

    · Hides his sensitive and romantic side well.

    · Would never be dangerous or violent to people who are on his good side.

    · Usually chooses verbal attacks over physical due to his lack of strength.

    · Often in trouble due to his attitude.

    · Loves cats, constantly buys food for his best friend’s cat and plays with it

    · Has a weak immune system and catches viruses often.

    · Financially better off than most vampires, because of his mother’s inheritance and his father’s job.

    · His father is a farmer and his mother an early retired school teacher of aristocratic origin.

    · Has strange dreams.

    · Can often be careless, clumsy and disorganized.

    · Ambievert; tends to be social and talkative, though he has moments of introspection, during which he needs to be alone and unbothered.

    · Reads and writes in his free time.

    · Has tried to smoke, but didn’t make it a habit, knowing it would weaken his immune system even further.

    · Passionate about learning more about immortality. Though it is a sensitive topic in his society, he talks about it freely, mostly because he is tactless.
     
  2. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Doesn't sound like Mary Sue, he has weaknesses as well as strengths

    That said the main determination of Mary Sue comes in how it is written, you can't really tell from a character sheet
     
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  3. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It's all in the execution.
     
  4. Cope Acetic

    Cope Acetic Member

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    There's a real danger. To be frank, these bullet points paint the picture of an anime protagonist. The biggest problem I have with it is that most of this information tells me nothing about this character. Like his favorite color and gemstone or his bloodtype. You won't ever get a sense of who this character is until you start trying to write him, and information like that isn't going to help much.
     
  5. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Agree with the others. It's difficult to tell how a device will perform by a simple listing of its technical specifications.
     
  6. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I've looked at character bio's before and felt the character was unoriginal, but then, once on the page they didn't feel that way anymore. It's all in the execution and making that character come to life.
     
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  7. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    Okay, listen, this is kind of a major pet peeve of mine and I'm liable to start ranting about it, but I'll try to control my impulses and keep it brief.

    When you get right down to it, Mary Sue is a problem with the author, not the character. You can't reliably identify a Mary Sue just from a list of traits because it's actually a product of the author's attitude towards the character and how he or she uses that character to tell the story.

    Mary Sues are wish-fulfillment vehicles that a certain (often insecure or troubled) type of author uses to indulge in self-gratifying escapist fantasies or/and as a coping mechanism, rather than using the character to tell a good and interesting story. This frequently results in bad storytelling and a dissonance between how the author feels about the Mary Sue and how the average reader reacts to her. This is the reason Mary Sues are considered bad writing.

    That's it. It's got very little to do with character design, or how powerful or talented or likable or flawed the character happens to be. What is considered to be "Mary Sue traits" are just symptoms, not the actual disease. As in, a given character can have them and still be totally fine because the author actually knows what they're doing. Correlation is not causation and so on.

    That character profile tells me nothing about whether or not your guy is a Sue, because I don't know how you, the actual writer, intend to use him. Though, just the fact that you are concerned about this is a good sign. Actual Mary Sue authors rarely have the self-awareness to consciously acknowledge what kind of character they're writing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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  8. Cope Acetic

    Cope Acetic Member

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    Fervidor, you nailed it. Well stated. When writing, focus on how the reader will experience the story, not just how you would.
     
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  9. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Yep. There's a big difference between any specific archetype or a paragon and pure self-indulgence. You can even write a generally loathsome character and still end up in wish fulfillment territory. I think you're safe with this as a starting point for your character. The trick is to keep the his flaws consistent and avoid turning them all into hidden strengths, that sort of thing. Don't treat him as precious, and don't give him the correct answer to every dilemma.
     
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  10. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    Wait, what is this? People who understood my definition of Mary Sue and didn't immediately dismiss it because it can't be easily formulated into a convenient laundry list of arbitrary character traits to avoid on principle?

    I must say, this is a novel experience for me.

    Well, I mean, they can be both. Or you can have apparent strengths that are also hidden flaws. It's rather contextual.
     
  11. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    All you've listed here are a bunch of pointless traits that don't do anything. The real ingredients to making a strong, non gary stu character is having the character have a goal, a motive, and a conflict. Then the story itself having a distinct exhibition, rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution.

    When you have those things, then you'll have a good character. Anything else is just irrelevant.

    As someone said before, Mary Sue characters are often wish fulfillment characters. And that's true. Because wish fulfillment characters are simply going through the motions and doing something the author wishes they themselves can do. There's no actual insight involved in their creation and there's no actual exploration of any of the consequences of their actions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
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  12. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Of course they can be. I'm all for it. The key word in that sentence was all. If every flaw actually turns out to be super cool, then...
     
  13. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    It can be quite a bit worse than just that, actually. Often, the Mary Sue will also express opinions held by the author, exercise power or authority the author desires to possess, generally enjoy the level of respect and reap the rewards that the author believes they themselves deserve, revenge injustices the author feels they have been subjected to, and administer retribution unto antagonists who - one suspects - are mere proxies or analogies for real people that the author believes have wronged them. (A major red flag is when the antagonists appear to only exist for the purpose of proving Mary Sue right, or to be punished by her.)

    Basically, everything in such a story is only there to make the author feel better about themselves. It can be quite uncomfortable and sad to encounter a true, pure-bred Mary Sue because once you know what to look for, you realize that the author is subconsciously baring all of their insecurities and failings.

    You know how people say Mary Sues have no flaws? That's a misunderstanding: They can have very, very dire flaws. For example, Mary Sue may be disproportionately vindictive, unbearably smug, self-serving, hypocritical, vainglorious, petty and cruel. Except none of those things are treated as character flaws by the narrative because they are actually the author's own flaws, and the author isn't willing to aknowledge them. So, they will either be ignored or justified in some way.

    For the same reason, these authors tend to be extremely defensive towards any critique of their character, making it very difficult to talk sense into them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
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  14. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    Dunno, as long as they serve their purpose as flaws, I'm not sure I would mind if they turned out to be advantageous as well.

    The way I see it, in the context of storytelling, a character flaw is any trait or tendency that causes some sort of problem for the character. (Regardless if it's commonly considered negative or positive.) Their purpose is to generate conflict. Whether or not they can be considered cool strikes me as somewhat irrelevant.
     
  15. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Mm I can't tell anything from a list of traits - I was like holy moly reading it cause I guess I don't put that much effort into all that sorting out. It would be easier to decipher whether your character is a gary stu in the execution of a scene. Or sometimes just even in the dialogue. I'm reading someones story right now and I'll twist some of the details but the overall effect is the characters seem to be wish-fullfilling extensions of the writer only times ten - i.e. they're not smart - they're genius', if they have ptsd is so everyone can admire them for handling it, if someone needs to be saved (and they most certainly are put into position to be saved) then the mc is the only one who can do it.

    You should sense it if you're going out of your way to ensure your character meets only bullies to conquer or nice people to befriend.
    For myself humor goes a long way to squashing this - allowing your character to laugh at himself, look a fool, make mistakes will help you avoid the perfect character. And sometimes I think that's when Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's happen is when the writer wants them to be perfect.
     
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  16. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    That's definitely one thing that is all too often an issue. Books, whether they're low art (ie comics) or high art (the world's greatest novels) do have to touch on some aspect of the human experience. And that does require self awareness and an understanding of personal flaws and their consequences. That's really what story telling is: A circumstance that leads to a decision that leads to a consequence. And if you don't examine the consequences of things, then you won't tell good stories.
     
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  17. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    The way I would put it is: Storytelling is a method for making sense of the world through analogy. Stories are simulations of emotional/aesthetic experiences, supplementary to real ones, which can teach us how to think and feel about things in real life. You might say they're a way for us to study the theory of how to be human.

    Characters are ultimately tools for telling stories. There's nothing wrong with cherishing a good tool, but one mustn't forget that their real value lies in how well they carry out their intended function. Whatever you end up building with them is the important thing.
     
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  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I think the Mary Sue authors tend to fetishise their tools and the story is no more than a setting to display their self-perceived magnificence.
     
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