Gay main character. Your thoughts and experiences?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by United, Nov 8, 2014.

  1. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    It doesn't have to happen in every case, only in instances where the underdog candidate is only "slightly" worse. The third candidate is the obvious shoe in in your scenario (although a humane company I think should hire the crippled man) but let's say there's a fourth candidate, essentially the same as the third, only he's a minority, and he spent one less year in the navy than candidate three. In that case, I think candidate four should be seriously considered.
     
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  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Oh I absolutely agree, but the way the news item reported it was in such a way that a black person should be given a football managers job just to make up the numbers, to fill the obligatory post and that's what would stop me bringing in a black/gay/disabled/ whatever character to my books unless it in some way benefited or moved the story forward.
     
  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Apologies to the op for totally sending this thread off track!
     
  4. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I feel like you're coming from a position of well, white privilege here who has little to no experience in racism - as in, that you have likely never been a target of racism or been in the minority in the place where you live. Because if you had, I'm pretty certain you wouldn't have said what you did.

    The chances of every single black person in the entire country not wanting to be a football manager or not being good enough to be one is rather slim, if you think about it. Racism is reality and anyone who claims it doesn't exist (at least never in their own countries!) is ignorant or simply doesn't want to see the truth. Given this reality and the extremely slight chance that not a single black person is objectively good enough for football management - it's really just a game of probability, really. Which one is logically the more likely situation here?

    Yes, I don't feel that there should be "token" black people in books, films etc. I'm not saying I wish for there to be black people hired to even out the playinf field. I'm saying I wish racism didn't exist and there's true equality, and the truth of the matter is, there very likely are black people who are qualified and want the job and are not given the job because they're black. That is of course illegal and you'll find a myriad of excuses why the person wasn't hired - racism is easy to hide - and more often than not, people who are not otherwise racist often discriminate without even knowing.

    It's emotional, it happens on a gut level sometimes. For example, using myself as an example, if I'm faced with a foreigner who spoke broken English and a native English speaker in an informal setting, who am I more likely to speak to? The native speaker. And yes, that is discrimination - I am discriminating and rejecting the one who does not speak perfect English. But did I look at him and think, "Hm you don't speak perfect English, so I don't like you?" Not at all. I am simply naturally drawn elsewhere. But just because it's unintentional doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean such behaviour is appropriate, or that it shouldn't be fixed. And if something this simple affects whom you make friends with, how can you not believe these things also affect the hiring process?

    We don't honestly always know we're discriminating, but until we realise that we are, we can't do a thing about it, and the minority will continue to suffer for our ignorance and denial.

    Dismissing the opinions and experience of the minority and attributing their cries of racism as "you're just being sensitive or thinking too much into it" is also a form of discrimination. It's saying the experiences of the minority group is somehow less valid than that of the majority group.

    I've never seen the minority group deny the existence of racism. I've only ever seen the majority group make such claims - because they've never had to experience it. They have never been targets of racism. They have no frigging clue because they are privileged. Privileged that their skin colour will never be a problem or hinderance, privileged that their word and experiences and opinions will always be more likely to be heard and taken seriously. Privileged that no one would ever dare consider throwing them out of their home and country and tell them they don't belong.

    But things can only get better if these privileged groups - and a lot of them are not consciously or actively racist - realise that they, too, often act in a discriminatory manner and work against it. If people within the majority, privileged group realises the need to fight rather than say what you've said - "Oh but have you ever thought about maybe you're just making a mountain out of a molehill!? Have you ever thought maybe there's just no one good enough? I'm sure if there really was, there would be more black people in management!"

    Because that's what we need - the minority group will always only count for half that of the majority group, our opinions always slighter, a little less important, a little quieter. We need people who are not otherwise nasty, racist people - those who actually do believe in equality and appreciate minority groups and diversity, we need those people to speak up and recognise that discrimination exists, because they're the ones who really have the power and the platforms to stand and speak, and be heard.

    But that's what's ironic about it all. Those people don't usually experience discrimination, and because of that, they think it doesn't exist, and anyone who cries "racism!" is just being a noisy, over-sensitive nuisance who can't see how good things have become.

    I'm speaking mostly generally, not at you personally, but it's something to think about. I have immersed in 3 different cultures (Chinese, English and Czech) and trust me, I have seen racism. Against myself, against my parents, against my sister, against my husband, against my friends from all over the world, in each and every one of the countries I've lived in. I have seen and felt and been through it in the more casual walks of life, from strangers, from my own good friends, from my own otherwise wonderful church, from work, in my own lives and the lives of those around me. And in each and every one of these countries, the locals always say, "There's no racism here. There's a good reason why things are this way and we think this way."

    Racism exists. The worst insult you can make is to say it doesn't.

    But in my experience, so far none of my English friends who are born and bred English have ever admitted that racism exists. Any time I've mentioned the issue, I am met with, "But are you sure you're not just reading too much into it?"

    Yes, I am sure, I want to say. But they're not listening, so what's the point? I no longer talk about it with my friends. Because, like yourself, they actually have the guts to be offended when I make such claims. I am discriminated against and they are offended. These are friends I've grown up with since childhood, lovely, educated, open-minded friends, some of whom have even travelled.

    It's not that racist people are always evil, I find - it's that good people don't realise they're racist.
     
  5. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I think the world needs more books like yours - authors who're not trying to make a statement by making their characters gay, but authors whose characters are gay because it's just who they are. It's another step to normalising what is not completely accepted in society yet, but which should be. People don't think twice when they write a heterosexual relationship because it's considered normal. Gay relationships should be considered normal too, and there's no better way of doing this than to do what you're doing - include it in a natural way like you'd include any other story elements, and not use it to make some kind of point.

    However, there certainly will be people who won't read it because the MC's gay. There're also agents who specifically sell LGBT literature, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know how easy it would be for you to sell it to an agent who does not otherwise sell LGBT Lit.

    But then that's where the internet and self-publishing comes in :) These days, you don't have to worry so much about what might or might not be accepted by the big names and important people.

    So write it. There'll be those out there who will find it refreshing, I believe :)
     
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  6. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    First of all, I'm not privileged. By a long way.

    And yes, racism exists in a big way, as well as all the other isms you can list. I am all for diversity but at the end of the day, the person who is best suited to the job should get the job. The question of skin colour and ethnic background shouldn't even come in to it.

    In the past I have been discriminated against because I am a white woman, even more so when I was fat, too but that doesn't mean I'm going to get on my soapbox and demand that fat white women should be ahead of the queue for anything.

    I was simply making a point about stereotypical characters in media, fiction media. (Apart from the one guy on the news this morning).
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    'Privilege' in this context is a social justice term - you might like to do some reading about it. (Because if you're saying you're white and not privileged, I don't think you know what the term means in this context).
     
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  8. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Do you honestly believe minority groups shouting "Racism!" is simply yelling that we somehow deserve to be ahead of the queue for things? Do you honestly believe that's why any of us are angry with the situation and the way we're treated? That somehow we want more than what the majority group has? Because if you do, I don't think you understand the idea of racism at all.

    Discrimination is also often systematic - there's a prevailing system or cultural mindset that grips the people so strongly that, despite all the equality laws in the world, discrimination continues to happen and everyone in the majority group considers it as normal, fair, or otherwise not worthy of attention. It's just the way things are.

    Maybe I'm ignorant, but I'm not aware of any systematic discrimination that would be in place against white English people in England, for example. Things would be different where white people are not the majority, but even elsewhere in the world, white skin is normally seen as a positive thing, not negative. White is the standard of beauty in China and Japan, for example, as well as Africa. (skin-whitening creams, very common thing) While my Bolivian friend's white English husband is looked upon in awe by her family and friends, my Paraguan friend's Ghanian black husband would be shunned in her country, which is one reason they're not going to go back to live there. White skin, even in places where the majority group isn't white, is often advantagous by no reason other than its very physical pigmentation.

    And if you don't realise this, you really need to read up on it.

    I'm not saying that as a white person you cannot face discrimination of some kind - everyone meets nasty people who are going to be nasty to you for whatever reason. But when minority groups cry "Racism!" it's not because we want a speedy ticket for some privilege - it's because there's a larger system or cultural mindset at work that somehow keeps us down here below the glass ceiling, whereas occasional bickering and meanness between human beings is a related but different thing.

    Perhaps you can relate better if you look at gender discrimination - there's very much a glass ceiling that women find hard to break through in their careers and the one or two exceptions where women get positions as CEOs doesn't mean there's no glass ceiling. And when women cry for equal pay, it is not because somehow they want to be "ahead of the queue" by virtue of being a woman - they're crying out that we shouldn't be judged according to our gender but according to our skills. Likewise, minority groups want to be judged by their skills and not their gender.

    Just to give you an example, my father-in-law is Czech and in England, he's considered as an "Eastern European", which has its cultural connotations, those being "You're behind and poor and uneducated." My father-in-law is an anethestist and a consultant working in the NHS with over 20 years experience. Do you know what he got asked when he entered his new job?

    A junior doctor questioned him if he even knew about these certain, more modern medical methods of treatment.

    And to give you another example, my own father is a professional accountant and worked immediately below the CEO of the company back in HK. On emigrating to the UK, after nearly twenty years, he's finally made it back to a simple senior manager. Certainly a good and well-paid job, but it's miles below what he used to be. And it took him twenty years just to get even about midway up where he used to be. And there's no real hope of any further progression because he's Chinese and speaks with a Chinese accent.

    My dad's not one of those crying, "Racism! I should be higher up in my career!" He laughs and jokes and says he's content, because it means less stress. He's not up in arms. He's not crying "I wanna be ahead of the queue because I'm Chinese!" But sometimes I ask him, "Why don't you apply for something higher?" And he says, "English people do not want to be led by a foreigner."

    He says it without malice, without anger. It's something he's simply accepted, and he's happy.

    My father-in-law is white, but not English whilst working in England, and faces discrimination. But at least he's kept his position as consultant, even though his ability is often questioned. My dad is not white and also works in England - he's not even been able to keep or get back to where he used to be in his job.

    So when I hear black people complain why are there no black football managers, I do not respond as you do - because for goodness' sake, I've seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. It's not people screaming to be ahead of the queue. It's people who are frigging frustrated with the lack of fairness and the load of shit they've had to face day in, day out, questioned, dismissed, rejected, not given a fair opportunity and all because they're not white, or simply a foreigner.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
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  9. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    If the unwritten rule "Minorities should not have good jobs" is causing problems, and leaving "Minorities should be given a fair chance" as an unwritten rule is not fixing the problem, then "Minorities should be given a fair chance" should be made a written rule.
     
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  10. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    @Mckk I know this is OT, but just to add something that is pretty much congruent with what you said: I witnessed something akin to such workplace racism not too long ago: a Polish guy (white), a company long-timer, twice chosen the Employee of the Year in his country branch, an accomplished innovator and the trainer of their Sales department was not chosen to a program that would've taken him to the next level in his job, unlike three Brits and one Belgian. I found it mind-boggling and he was simply flabbergasted by the decision, especially because language was in that particular case a non-issue; the Belgian woman spoke English pretty much on the same level, and the three Brits were far less experienced (not sure why they even needed two Masters for the same UK facility when Poland -- with a sizable country office -- still has zero). Maybe they had other reasons then, who knows, but I'm not so naive I'd count out some form of prejudice and "cultural condescension" towards him.
    We Finns practice similar discrimination too, unfortunately.
     
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  11. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I'm just going to say this and leave. The most irritating thing about discussions on racism is that generally it is seen as a white vs non-white issue. 'Whites don't understand what it's like to be non-white'. And while there is a shameful amount of racist attacks by anglo people, we recently had a string of racist events here in Australia where those that discriminate are themselves from various backgrounds. An African guy who was a very experienced barista was refused a job in a cafe because he was black. The cafe owner was Chinese. In and around an Aboriginal enclave in Sydney a group of extremist aboriginal activists have put up posters on properties owned by Chinese immigrants calling for Chinese on 'black land' to be thrown out as they pose a 'threat' (luckily this has been strongly condemned by the local temporary Aboriginal tent embassy). In Perth a man charged for posting racist tweets about a Fijian football player, taunting him with racist and homophobic slurs, was from Vietnam. Also in Perth an innocent Asian woman (The news article doesn't state her ethnicity beyond this) on a train was assaulted with racist slurs by an Aboriginal woman. A while back Harry Connick Jr was offended on our TV when a bunch of guys did a variety performance of the Jackson five wearing 'black face.' When defending their highly offensive routine the foreign students replied 'how can it be racist, we're Indian?'

    Bigotry and racism exists. Across all races. Across the world. Those who think it's just a white thing are themselves being racist.

    As for the OP: Make 'em gay, and fuck those who don't like it.
     
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  12. jedellion

    jedellion Member

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    One of my favourite Mercedes lackey trilogies deals with a gay protagonist. The Vanyel stories. This is a very sensitive portrayal of homosexuality. or seems to be form my hetero viewpoint.

    The Last Herald Mage
    These occur some centuries before the Heralds of Valdemar books, telling the life story of Vanyel Ashkevron;
    1. Magic's Pawn (1989) ISBN 978-0-14-016751-1
    2. Magic's Promise (1990) ISBN 978-0-88677-401-1
    3. Magic's Price (1991) ISBN 978-0-88677-426-4
     
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  13. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    @jedellion

    Also, Magic's Pawn has the most amazing cover ever. :love:
     
  14. LetaDarnell

    LetaDarnell Member

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    Being gay affects your sexuality, not much else (political choices and which bars to go to are affected). A gay person playing D&D would only be differ by personality, not sexuality, from a straight person playing D&D (for example).
     
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  15. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    Until the the lv8 orc mage casts seducition on the lv6 black knight dwarf >.>
     
  16. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's mildly offensive to compare some of your examples to the African American situation here in the US. African Americans are Americans and every bit a part of our country and it's development. They have also suffered tremendous wrongs.

    Your own complaints are primarily about foreigners not being given the same opportunities as natives, an entirely different argument and not necessarily discrimination. No one wants to give out money to a foreigner, who may be eeven better educated because of where he is from, only so he can give that money back to his family in his native country. I'm not saying I agree with this perspective, but no, sorry, your fathers predicament (as described) is nowhere near on par with the discrimination African Americans face.
     
  17. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I once read an interview wherein Michael Chabon (The Mysteries of Pittsburgh, Wonder Boys, The Yiddish Policeman's Union) made comment on his delight at being mislabeled in another article (and I paraphrase) "a very promising new gay writer". He's not gay, though all his novels that I have read do have either gay protags or other main players who are LGBT. He was flattered that his characters were received so well that people assumed him to be gay in real life, and I was amongst those who had made that assumption. His books are terrific. If you saw the film The Mysteries Pittsburgh, they did a complete hash job on the story line. Read the book. Anywho, str8 writers can definitely write gay characters. It's not off the table at all.

    Also, this my really nice way of saying this thread is derailing and I would like for it to get back on track. ;)
     
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  18. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Oh for heavens sake! I am not saying that minorities should not be included in anything and I never said that the man on the news was shouting the racism card! To put it simply, I work in a place that has over 100 different departments employing thousands of people from all walks of life, ALL walks of life but the department I work in has nine people. We are all white and we are all women and that is because no black/Chinese/disabled/gay/men/ftm/mtf/anyone else I've forgotten, has even applied for a job in that department in the first place!

    This is the point I was making about the man on the news who complained that there were no black football managers (and please note, I am being very specific here when I say FOOTBALL managers! not general mangers, shop managers, office managers, just football managers) maybe, (and we will never know because it was never reported) but maybe no black football managers actually applied or wanted the football managers job!
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Deleting because my post was part of the "off track" track.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
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  20. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    I think that the racism tangent, including how it may be different in the US versus in Europe and elsewhere, is a very interesting and very valid one to have, but yes, it is deserving of its own thread in the debate room, as it's not the same as that introduced in the OP.

    I do think that it may be more difficult to do justice to a character that is of a different race/ethnicity than the writer's than it would be to do justice to a character who is gay. Yes, both experience prejudice, and both are possible to do. It's also possible to do a terrible job, and end up making a lot of people angry. Both groups experience microaggressions and both have difficulties that are similar, but are not exactly the same.

    Gay people exist in all segments of society -- in all countries, in all religions, in all socio-economic statuses, and in all professions. It's more likely to discover, though that for example, your brother is gay -- if your brother is black, that's not news to you. So, there are certain societies and groups that might be composed of members who are of the same race, but there really aren't any that have no gay people (although they might be hidden.)

    I guess I'm just pointing out that it's not a perfect analogy.
     
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  21. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Exactly where and when did I say discrimination faced by any one minority group is greater or less than another's? And when exactly did I compare my situation with that of African Americans? I made a mention of 2 specific situations related to Latin America, and I also made mention to whitening creams which orientals as well as Africans do use and is a common thing. I do not understand where you got the comparison with African Americans from.

    And there's no point crying "African Americans have it far worse than you as a Chinese immigrant!" I am highly aware that as a Chinese-looking person, I am less discriminated against than my black friends. To give an example, my Indian friend is selectively stopped at metros where they check your tickets - there was once when an entire stream of Czechs past the two ispectors and they didn't stop a single one. They only stopped my friend, an Indian, who in the Czechs' eyes look gypsy. I, on the other hand, blend in with the Vietnamese minority, who are seen as in general honest citizens whose children intergrate well into the country. I have been a target of inspections twice but it is not a common thing that happens to me. I am well aware it is because I do not look "suspicious" in the locals' eyes thanks to the colour of my skin that, while definitely foreign and not white, is not seen as a threat.

    In any case, discrimination is discrimination - suffering hurts, whichever group has the misfortune to face it and be a target of racism.

    I was using England as my example because that's where I grew up and where my family lives - I know the situation there better and commented upon it. I also said I was not aware that white English people would be systematically discriminated against in England. I can make the same claim about the US - white Americans are not systematically discriminated against the way African Americans are. African Americans, by and large, I'd imagine, are black. Apologies for lumping white African Americans in with the aforementioned white Americans. (I am aware white Africans exist - my brother-in-law is half Zimbabweian)

    The bolded part - sorry, but that is discrimination.
     
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  22. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I agree. I comment on white people specifically probably because I live in Europe, where whites are indeed the majority.

    To give an example, people in Hong Kong are highly prejudiced against mainland Chinese people and treat Filipinos as lower-class citizens, with laws in place that are borderline legal slavery.
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Y'know, it occurs to me that Henry, of my vignette characters Henry and Emily, who in theory will be the main characters of Coriolis Effect if I ever get it written, may very well be gay.

    I have no idea where I'm going with that fact, but I think it may be true, and I think that it might solve some of the blank spots that I've had in figuring out Henry's motivations. And I've been concluding for a while that Henry is a better choice for the main POV character, even though the story's plot line is more closely linked to Emily. So I may have a gay main character without having known it.

    Hmm.
     
  24. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak
    Don't you hate it when your characters seem to grow outside of you and mess up all your plans?
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yep. Henry being gay is fine, though; my problem is that he's become self-aware and wants out of the book.
     
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