All of this true. Absolutely. And honestly, like most of "the small things" I actually don't usually see the issue. It's just in the background. And, as some have felt the need to point out to me as if it weren't obvious, I'm sure (I know) I have my "small things" that bug the shit out of William. But sometimes the small things stick out. Sometimes they come off the back burner and onto the front burner and start to boil. And I feel like I have addressed the matter with him in a rational manner in the past. I feel like I've done the things you mention. I asked the original question I asked because I feel like I've done all these things and there hasn't been much improvement. Though I think William displays shades of hoarding, he's not a hoarder for those who were arguing the yes/no of that earlier. We have a friend named Frank who is a real-deal hoarder. Rooms that contain hallways constructed of the things he has hoarded. His hoarding is peculiar in its cleanliness. He doesn't have junk. He has uncountable new things in boxes stacked like a warehouse. Pretty much everything in my office at home (desk, shelves, filing cabinet, etc) was gifted to me by him because he has 10 of each of those things still in the box. He is the real thing. William is not the real thing.
I think you should sit down with William and tell him calmly just how much it's bothering you. He loves you, so he'll probably listen. And if it's a die-hard habit and those drawers aren't gonna disappear, perhaps either, 1. you could create a different cupboard where everything in the 4 drawers can go into one big space, or 2. let it go. In the end, it's not worth it costing your relationship, and in this case I think the only person who can resolve your problem is yourself and William because one of you has got to give way - either by leaving the junk drawers alone, or by clearing it out. What you two have to work out is, to whom is this more important? And then let the other person be gracious enough to give way, because you love each other. Cus it's either that or you can't live together, right, if it's bothering you this much? To be honest, I have a feeling you just needed to vent cus it's long-term frustration. And it might be just becoming more frustrating for you on the forum because we speak without knowing the context and the long-term build-up of the situation, so even if any of the advice is good (and some of them do seem good), it's hard to accept. You'll work it out. Remember what's important: William, his feelings, and your relationship together. Sit down and talk to him. Once he realises how much it's bothering you, really bothering you, maybe you might make some headway.
Well thank you for the flashback to my childhood, maybe you could come over here and murder my dog as an encore? That was a joke. I was joking. I don't have a dog. But our experiences are very different if he's actually willing to give something away. My stepfather would never let me use his tools. The tools that literally filed a garage to the point that there were only a few tiny hallways to move around in. He would rather go out and buy me new tools, rather then let me use his.
I would guess that there is no logical approach that will get him to clean out the drawers. In fact, I would guess that there is no approach of any kind that will get HIM to clean out the drawers, or get him to consent to you cleaning out the drawers. I think that either you clean them out without his participation or consent, or they don't get cleaned out. If I had an unchallenged claim to a share of this home, I would clean out the drawers, put the contents in boxes, and stack the boxes in the hoarderesque person's territory. But I would do so with the knowledge that this action could lead to the end of the relationship. You have a less unchallenged claim, and you're not willing to give up the relationship, so it's difficult. Hoarding is incredibly difficult, in any case. It's wise of you to hang on to your own home, because a hoarder will usually be driven to take full control of any home that they are in. The best solution that I can think of for this situation would be each of you having a completely independent home, with the two homes being very close together, such as apartments next door to each other. I say "apartments" rather than, say, a duplex, because if you each had a side of a duplex he might be driven to hoard the shared yard. In an apartment, there's a landlord to lay down the law about any hoarding outside the front door. There are books out there about hoarding, but it's my opinion--and the opinion of a good percentage of the children-of-hoarders group that I participate in--that the mental health profession doesn't yet have a real clue about hoarding. It's treated with an anxiety/OCD/executive function model, where I think that it should be treated with an addiction/personality disorder model. The anxiety, OCD, and executive function issues are certainly there, but I believe that there are more issues that make hoarding behavior rewarding to the person, and reinforce that behavior. Edited to add: I realize that he may not be a hoarder. I hope he's not. But if he is, I just wanted to make it clear that there is no logic about hoarding. Every "reason" for the stuff turns out to be an onion layer that leads to mor and more reasons.
I can't speak for this specific case. But the difficulty with hoarders is not usually, "Hey, Joe, you shouldn't keep those magazines on your desk. So I threw them out for you." With a hoarder, it's more likely to be, "Hey, Joe, could you please stop keeping those magazines on my desk? Yes, I realize that your desk is full, but my desk is still my desk. And by the way, I almost fell when I was trying to get past that stuff you're storing on the stairs. And could you please clean all that stuff out of the bathtub? The gym at work is going to be closed over Christmas break, so I'm really going to need to be able to shower at home."
Mainly, as I see it, the first model assumes that the hoarder suffers from the hoarding. The second acknowledges that the hoarder gets substantial benefit from the hoarding. Dysfunctional benefit, but benefit. You wouldn't look at an alcoholic and say, "Well, obviously the alcohol is making them sick, and destroying their work and personal lives, so of course they will eagerly embrace the idea of no longer drinking." Alcohol, despite all the horrible things it does, has dysfunctional benefits--pleasure, blunting pain, and so on. An alcoholic will often, usually, fight to keep drinking. A hoarder will often, usually, fight to keep hoarding.
My husband is a bit of a hoarder. He's not a collector, so it doesn't get out of hand, but his habit of never clearing up, and his tendency to dump stuff he plans to do something with 'later' pushes the boundaries. He hates taking time to get rid of stuff, and allows stuff to accumulate to the point where it's difficult to clean around it. As I'm the only one who does any cleaning around the house, I do stand up to it on occasion. I'm not a susie-creamcheese homemaker, so he gets away with more than some wives would allow. However, I've got a bottom line, I suppose, like everybody else. For me it's the public rooms. I like to be able to lick them into presentable shape given about 15 minutes' notice. Seems reasonable. I would never throw away stuff without somebody's permission, although I've crossed the line on a couple of issues. He throws unopened junk mail, catalogues, etc in piles all over the place, and I no longer ask him if it's okay to throw it away. When I'm cleaning, and I come across unopened junk mail, it gets tossed. So far he hasn't complained. Same with outdated magazines, newspapers, catalogues, etc. Out. I also periodically go through communal drawers, cupboards, etc. My technique is to empty the drawer, put back into it the stuff I feel needs to be there, put the rest of it in a heap (on his favourite chair is a great place!) and tell him to pick the stuff out that he really wants to keep. Generally he doesn't want to save much of it, so it goes. Success. I do think a lot of the problem stems from laziness regarding housework, rather than attachment to the stuff that's piled up. There is a difference between accumulating and hoarding. Accumulating is just not throwing stuff away. Hoarding is wanting to keep everything. When he was growing up, his mom did all the housework. He complains that she used to throw his stuff away all the time. At first I was sympathetic. Now I'm less so. Living with somebody whose housekeeping technique and standard is different from your own is not easy. I lived with my best friend for several years, and while she is and always will be my best friend, sometimes she drove me nuts. She was the sort who had a divine discontent when it came to arrangments of furniture, etc. She kept the house in a constant state of flux. I never knew when I came home what sort of changes she was going to have made—and then the next week it would be something else. Some arrangements worked, some didn't. I'm the sort who arranges and rearranges things till they work the best, and then I leave them alone. She's not. I gritted my teeth and allowed her to do this, because she really needed to, in order to be happy in her environment. We used to laugh about it, and the issue was always out in the open. She said at one point that she wouldn't do it any more if it really bothered me, and that was enough for me to say it didn't. However, it's not the way I prefer to live. I've also lived with people who cleaned, hoovered and dusted every inch of the house every day. There was no noticeable dust, so I didn't see the point. However, they insisted that WAS the point. So I was the grubby one in that scenario. The question about William, @Wreybies is really basic. Is he willing to compromise to keep you living with him in his house? Are you willing to compromise to keep living with him? The word is compromise. Both of you have to give in and meet halfway. That might mean a messier house than you like to live in. Or a messy section of the house versus a clean section of the house. But it's two-way. Will he be willing to change a little to keep you living with him? If not, I'd worry about the relationship. Passive aggressive behaviour only works when it works. If you decide to move out, then maybe he'll realise that changes in his housekeeping are less painful than separation. (You can continue to be in the relationship, of course, but won't live together any more. That can be done.) If you can pay to share his house, you can pay to share a different one (as a roommate) with somebody else. Maybe start looking for one. Once you find one, you can have 'the talk' with William, and offer him the alternatives. Anyway, good luck. Who said love was easy, eh?
I hope he's not as well, and I don't know if true hoarding is a cumulative pathology that grows over time and am I maybe just seeing the nascent version of it. There are other dynamics in play. I first wrote it off to the fact that he grew up very, very, very poor. I did not grow up poor, but I figured that maybe if I had I might be reticent to let things go because of remembering a time when I had almost no things to call my own. His closet is filled with "skinny clothes" from yesteryear that I know he views as "one day I'll fit into these again", while the actual clothing he uses is part of the fabric mass I refer to as the Clothes Ocean that covers every square inch of the bedroom floor. So, again, there is another example of a needed, useful space gone derelict for being filled with things that never, ever come out of there and useful items are on the floor when they should be in that closet. There are mens Pepe Jeans hanging in that closet that are pleated. Do you remember how long ago that 15 min fad happened? A very long time ago. We both know that the condo is not where we are going to grow old. It's where he lived when I met him and it's much more convenient as regards our jobs, so it's our "daily driver", but it's a very small 4th floor walk-up on a busy, noisy main drag and it will eventually pass to one of our nieces or nephews because that's just how things are done here. The house in Moca is where we will grow old, or at least I pray it's we and not just me. The house in Moca is idyllic and serene and quiet on a huge piece of land where we have space and privacy and the neighbors all know us and we know them and it's a very nice spot to contemplate those last years of life. It's a mountain top and I have the kind of view that makes people suddenly stop talking when they go to the back yard and see it. But I'm pretty fastidious, and I make no apologies for it. It's a normal fastidious. You are welcome to put your clean feet on my coffee table, but not your dirty shoes. This is William's home for his golden years, and I want him here with me, but I don't want these behaviors of which we have spoken.
@jannert - the super clean homes you talked about reminds me of this one landlady I shared a flat with for a whooping 3 months before I had to move out. She even wiped her grapes after she washes them. She cleans everything. The stupidest thing is, she has a white couch that she's so terrified of getting dirty - cus it's white - that she throws an ugly green blanket over the whole thing. So I'm like, why don't you just bloody buy one with a darker colour that actually looks nice!? She can't ever relax about the house because everything could get damaged - of major concern is the floor. You must never move anything, not even the chairs, because the chair legs might leave scratch marks on the unvarnished wooden floors! Why doesn't she put varnish on them? Because it's nicer without, apparently. In my opinion, she creates her own stress. I have little sympathy for people who creates their own problems. @Wreybies - I think you need to say all that to William - everything about the dream of sharing that idyllic home with William, and everything about how you can't actually imagine sharing that with him if his habits don't change. You need to be honest with him. In the end, William and his habits come as a package, and if you can't accept his habits - and let's be real here, even if he does give way and compromise, he'll still have junk drawers, and there's still gonna be eternal clutter that'll drive you nuts - then are you sure there's a future in this relationship? Seems a small thing to break up over, but if you can't live with it, then it's just the reality of the situation, isn't it? I think that's why you venting here rather than talking to him already - seems to me that you're at a breaking point and to push it might mean the end of the relationship, and you're not quite ready to face that possiblity. Perhaps the compromise is simply that William will continue to hoard, but you'll clean it all out after him. He'll have to compromise in as much as he actually has to let you do that, and you'll have to compromise in as much as you have to live with the mess and then clean up the mess. The real question is: if nothing changes and those junk drawers remain - and wherever you live, wherever you go, junk drawers and junk cupboards and perhaps even junk corridors would spring up (you'll have to assess for yourself which scenario is most realistic based on your relationship) - would you still be able to spend the rest of your life with him? Live under the same roof? Laugh about the clutter, fight over it from time to time, and then kiss and make up and carry on? I remember when I was thinking about marrying my husband, many people told me: don't marry thinking your partner's gonna change afterwards. Likely he won't. Marry him only if you think you can live with him and love him all the same even if nothing ever changes. All the bad habits, all those quirks you hate and that drive you up the wall, all those little niggles - what if they all remained and never go away? Can you still live with him? You dream of sharing a life with William, is my impression, so your considerations should be basically the same as my own about marriage.
@Mckk I like what you said. The thing about traits is they are often clustered and by changing something you don't like, the traits you found endearing may also change.
