Lot's of questions, I know. Sorry about that. I'm writing in 3rd ppov and occasionally the narrator will make reference to things out of other movies or books. For example, I'll write: **Trevor sat on the overpass and looked down at the deserted city. For a minute, he felt like Robert Neville in Richard Matheson's The Omega Man.** Is this acceptable as is or am I going to have to get permission from the book's publisher to add that? I do it a fair number of times throughout my story. I'd love to keep these things but I don't want any trouble. HELP!! Td-
Do you plan on pursuing traditional publishing, self publishing, or posting on a site like Wattpad? The answer may affect how much risk you'd even be concerned about. But I'd discuss it with a lawyer that specializes in these things. The only reason I'm even saying anything is because I almost missed the part where you said 'I do it a fair number of times throughout the book'. This is what would concern me the most. Also, is that quote exactly how it would appear in the book? I'd maybe reword it a bit different, and swap Robert Neville with Charlton Heston (or Will Smith if referencing 'I Am Legend' for younger readers).
Yes, traditional publishing. And by saying I do it a fair number of times, what I mean is that there are references to a couple of other books and movies, not that I do Matheson's book over and over. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
You’ll find published books that do this sort of thing. What kind of claim do you envision someone making based on the example given? If publishing traditionally I wouldn’t worry about it at all—if a publisher that wants the book has any issue with it, you’ll deal with it at that point.
Depends on how you do it, too. I recently started reading a well-reviewed novel using Kindle Unlimited, and in the first chapter, the President of the United States recommended another author's book, by name and with a link to Amazon, to the MC. Total non-sequitur. I returned the book immediately.
Is it a postmodernist comedy? If not I wouldn't go breaking the fourth wall like that. Also, why is the narrator so focused on books? Is the character an author, or a massive fan of books?
Sorry, that was a bit over my head. It's an analogy that provides a little artistic depth to the mood and/or setting. It's like a burst of description that the reader can relate to. Do I do too much of it? Well, good question. I'm almost done with edit #1. I'll pay attention to that question in soon to be edit #2. My MC is fifteen years old, so I kind of felt like the narrative voice needed to be uncoupled from him.
I guess you mean the postmodernist comedy part. Think of movies like Bill & Ted, Jay and Silent Bob, and a whole slew of others that frequently comment on movies or popular entertainment. Especially ones where the characters seem to understand they're in a movie (or a book) and make comments to the fact. Like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where characters and the written narration keep saying things like "Isn't that the old man from scene 47?" Breaking the 4th wall is an old theater term. There are 3 walls on the stage, and where there should be a 4th one is the open proscenium, through which the audience can see the actors. In most plays there's an assumption that there is a wall there, and the players pretend not to notice the audience, but when the 4th wall gets broken (in comedies usually) they make comments directly to or about the audience. It's a very postmodern effect that makes everyone take a big step back and see the meta picture. Deadpool does it all the time. Another well known one is Scream, where the characters in a horror movie keep talking about the conventions of horror movies. The way Ferris Bueller keeps talking directly to the audience. I'm just saying that making direct references to other books breaks the 4th wall and is usually only done in comedies. And the fact that it's a book and the mentions all seem to be of other books makes it seem like the narrator is very aware that he's a narrator in a story, and he seems to be drawing attention repeatedly to the fact.
It could work, if there's a hint of self-aware (postmodernist) comedy in the story (it doesn't need to be as over the top as the ones I mentioned) and if the character is an avid reader. Then he could be expected to make references to books. Otherwise it would probably seem pretty random.
I wouldn't call the OP's original example breaking the fourth wall. People compare things to books/movies/etc. all the time; it's a natural way of thinking that's neither postmodern nor comedic. The example reads like a perfectly normal line of fiction to me, and it gives a bit of insight into the character's background and thought process.
Great points. I add some witty observations along the way that might cross the line and be seen as comedy, but they happen at times where there's a break in the action and maybe the situation calls for it. What I need is someone to beta this thing and tell me if I pull it off or should cut it out. Not saying you, but god knows i need a beta in the worst way, lol.
If witty and whimsical are parts of the character's personality (or the narrator's?) then that works even better. @AntPoems could be right, as I said it isn't only done in comedy, and sometimes it's very subtle.
I was asking if the story is postmodern, and/or comedy. Just trying to get a fix on it, there wasn't much context given. The line he posted isn't necessarily any of the above, but could be. Especially if there's a lot of it.
Stephen Graham Jones’ novel My Heart is a Chainsaw is a good example of a novel that uses a lot of references to movies. It doesn’t break the 4th wall. It’s a horror novel and Jones has good reason to make the references given the story.
I think there might be a forum rule against legal advice, but before that: is it good writing? If Trevor was at a party where everyone kept talking enthusiastically about America's nuclear arsenal, and he said that reminded him of the Omega Man, that might tell us some things about him in an efficient way: He views the other people at the party as mutant zombie cultists He's young and pretentious and/or cultured He isn't interested in real-world geopolitics He might be prone to exaggeration He might be left wing He might be compensating for social anxiety The problem I find in the OP is that the film looks like it's being used as a shortcut to get out of writing a convincing post apocalyptic city. If the city is that similar to another literary city, then it isn't novel, so maybe if it's also hard to describe it shouldn't be written at all. How would the story look without this city? A postmodernist treatment might be for the party to be set in Charlton Heston's and Will Smith's flat and for Trevor to ask them how the Family are coming to terms with them being together. The boundaries between author, reader, and work can all be crossed: it's the difference between quoting a work and utilizing it.
Good question. Does the inclusion of the quote necessarily cause the setting's development to be unconvincing? Let's say I did an adequate job of painting the picture, does the analogy hinder or augment the authenticity of the setting? Now you've got me wondering. I guess it'll be one of the items on the punch list for a beta reader to decide. Not all settings have to be novel to be effective. Romero established the dystopian zombie world, yet TWD, 28 days later, and many others were very successful when they utilized it. In those cases, they were downright clones of Romero's settings. When I used Matheson, it was because the forward projection of events in the story led to that inevitable outcome. There was no other way around it. But I can see the short cut argument. There's a fine line between a tip of the cap to the other work and leaning heavily on it. Again, i'll leave it for a beta to decide if i did an adequate job.
From the POV I assumed this is for a novel, not a screenplay. In film, there is still a huge requirement for novelty, but it's visual more than verbal. I'd suggest that 28 days later would have been quickly binned if it looked like night of the living dead as well as relying on its story elements and themes. But in novels it's more acute because our vocabulary of words is far smaller than a camera crew's vocabulary of images. I'd suggest to put a bigger chunk of this description into the workshop, though. The reference to the omega man doesn't seem like it's likely to be adding novelty, but it would need more context to say for sure
I might have two betas lined up that both are previous high school english teachers. I'll try posing the question to them. All these things were intended to add a flavorful texture to the writing for fans of the genre, but if the feedback falls along the lines of what you describe, then they're all one-liners and can be omitted without much effort. As someone who really hopes people enjoy this, I'm keeping my fingers crossed on the topic. Td-
Think about how it works from a character POV. One reason it makes so much sense in Jones’ My Heart is a Chainsaw is that the main character is obsessed with 70s/80s slasher films. She sees things through that lens so you get tons of references to old movies. Not just to the names of them but to the events in them. If your character is constantly name-checking old books or movies during the course of the story, that tells me something about the character and how he sees the world.
