Tags:
?

Do you personally think that authors should generally write for themselves, or their audience?

Poll closed Sep 9, 2019.
  1. Yes

    55.6%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. You don't really get enough answers to justify using these.

    44.4%
  1. LastMindToSanity

    LastMindToSanity Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2018
    Messages:
    753
    Likes Received:
    382

    Gritting Your Teeth for the Sake of the Story

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by LastMindToSanity, Feb 9, 2019.

    I was originally going to ask this for the purpose of advice earlier, but I've already dealt with that, so I'll set this up as one of those discussion-type things that I sometimes do.

    So far, I've had several moments where I've just had to look at my story and make hard decisions. Basically, the choices boil down to 'this would make me feel better, but this would be better for the story.' Now, I've caved every now and then, no shame, but I'm wondering about your teeth-gritters.

    So, have you had moments while writing where you've had to grit your teeth and decided that the story's strength comes before your ideal scenarios? If so, then what were they?
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I don't really think about it in those terms, I don't think.

    The story I want to tell is, more or less, the one that I think my audience will want to read.

    There are things I don't want to write, so I don't (over-the-top alpha heroes, etc.) but I can't recall ever having a clear moment of "this story will be stronger if I do A, but I want to do B instead". If A is going to make my story stronger, then A is generally what I want to write.
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    I feel a need for a third entry in the poll: The author, the audience, or the story.

    I realize that in the end the story should serve the audience, but in the middle, what makes the story better may make the audience unhappy. You have to support them through the unhappiness sufficiently to keep them from throwing the book at the wall, but still, at that moment you're choosing the story over the audience.

    There are many times in my current WIP when I want my two main characters to resolve a conflict and be happy with one another, but I need to ramp up the conflict and the hatred instead.
     
    Lifeline, John-Wayne, jannert and 3 others like this.
  4. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,998
    Likes Received:
    3,691
    There's a saying. "The first draft is for the author. The second draft is for the audience."

    I've also heard it said, and I think it's good advice, that you should reduce your audience to one single person, the perfect reader for your story. It might be a beer-swilling fratboy obsessed with the occult ("John Dies at the End"), or it might be bondage fantasist wanting to be used by a billionaire (The Novel Which Must Not Be Named). Whoever your target is, you craft a story for that one perfect reader, and if you can knock it out of the park for them, others will come along for the ride.

    Of course, it's pretty typical for that ideal reader to be a lot like ourselves (the writer). It doesn't have to be, but it seems like it often is.

    So I would say that the inspiration is a story for ourselves, but we refine it to draw in others and make them care the way we do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  5. Odile_Blud

    Odile_Blud Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    134
    I think it's whatever goal the author has in mind with their book. I think there really is a what they "should" do.

    I write for myself.
     
  6. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Location:
    San Diego
    I'm at that moment of gritted teeth in my short story, which has two Peshmerga fighters clearing a building in Iraq and one does not speak the others language. I feel I may have to go back and get someone so I can use dialog. It's probably okay being all in the narrative but I would feel better with a dialog break.
     
    LastMindToSanity likes this.
  7. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    8,763
    That's not how I phrase it, but yes, there's some teeth-gritting now and then. My phraseology is more along the lines of a pragmatic, "Is this commercially viable?"

    I have really quirky tastes in reading, and I read a lot of books from the 1920's to 1940's. The things I like to read are not popular with 2019 fiction audiences, and my preferences as a reader are not commercially viable.

    Example: I like a slow introduction to the characters, and I like a slow burn rather than being put right into the action. What I like, however, would never get me published. So, I took one for the team and gritted my teeth wrote an opening scene that introduced the main character and immediately started the action.

    What's most important to me is writing memorable characters and staying true to them, so as long as what I'm writing stays true to them, it's not that big a deal to me to write a scene or two that makes it more commercially viable. I rarely remember stories, but I always remember memorable characters.
     
    LastMindToSanity and Thundair like this.
  8. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2015
    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    995
    I don't see why an author can't write for both. If you don't love what you're writing, then there's no reason why anyone else should love it. However, then there's the audience. And yes an author should keep them in mind.

    I have found when I faced that, I just do what's better for the story and then let it sit for a few weeks. I come to find either I was wrong and it really should have been the other way, or I was right and I came to terms with the decision.
     
  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    I definitely write the story I want to write (and read), and I don't compromise that.

    However, after I take opinion from beta readers, I usually try to edit the story, so what I wrote becomes what they also wanted to read. (I'm speaking about story content here. Reactions to my story's construction are something I always take on board.)

    If a beta indicates they have a problem with some aspect of the story that I intend to keep, I do usually try to make my own intentions clearer during the editing process. If I like a character, for example, and my beta doesn't, I will work on trying to illustrate why I like that character during an edit. Make the likeable qualities stronger, or make it more obvious why my characters are the way they are. If I get that right, I'm hoping the beta might change his or her mind. Sometimes this approach works for them, and sometimes it doesn't. We do all see life differently, sometimes.

    Of course I'm not 100% successful in gaining support from all comers. But no author ever is.

    What I definitely will NOT do is tailor or censor my story to please a specific 'market.' It's fine if other writers want to do that, but it would negate my reason for writing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  10. Intangible Girl

    Intangible Girl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2018
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    444
    I strive for the third option, which is something that is good for the story AND good for me.

    Because, yes I come to those moments where what I would like isn't what's best for the story. But instead of gritting my teeth and doing something I'm not enthused about, I try to find a third option, something I haven't thought of before, something surprising. If I can surprise myself, chances are I can surprise my reader. If I'm gritting my teeth, dragging myself through something I don't enjoy, that's not going to be fun for me or the reader.

    Basically I try to follow Pixar's rules for storytelling. (You've read those, right?) #12 is
    Funnily enough, #2 is "You gotta keep in mind what's interesting to you as an audience, not what's fun to do as a writer. They can be v. different." So there's that.
     
  11. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,088
    Likes Received:
    7,421
    I want to tell the perfect story. And I mean that in an imperfect way, but what I want is always for the sake of the story. My short stories are written with certain publications in mind. But what I want is to write the kind of stories they publish. I don't really see a give and a take there or much of a compromise. My goal is to write what they want and their goal is to read something they want. No, it doesn't always work out, but I do write both my short stories and my novel with the contemporary literary scene in mind.

    Where I do grit my teeth is often during the editing process. Something that seemed so good in the story two days ago can be the weight holding it back. Killing darlings is never an easy thing to do. And sometimes it seems like almost everything is off and the only way to salvage it is to scrap everything and start again. We, as writers, are going to make mistakes and try things that do and don't work. I hope I know when I'm not writing publishable work. I don't see it so much as a compromise but more like standards I'm trying to reach.

    However, I think writers often come to a fork in the road throughout the creative process. If both options feel wrong for any reason, maybe the story needs to go in an even different direction. I also would say trust your gut on this one whatever it might be saying.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  12. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Both. Ultimately you have to write for yourself, your own enjoyment cause it is work and you have to be proud of it. But if you want someone to actually read it you have to be sympathetic to the reader. And if it's genre you specifically have to live up to the label you want it to bear.

    Endings/or scenarios that are good for the story and not necessarily ones you want to write that's an interesting problem. I recall getting into a huge argument over the ending of the Jack Nicholson movie the Pledge. Some thought it was harsh. I thought, given the tone of the movie, it suited it. I had the opposite reaction with the Jude Law movie Cold Mountain which felt like a bad punchline in a horror movie.
    I feel like if I can't force myself to write something I've either branched away from that tone and it's not the best scenario I could go with or I'm uncertain/worried about changing the tone by taking that big step. Death or even a huge game changer twist, if it's not near the end of a story can have such a drastic ripple effect it's hard to recover the tone you've spent, possibly months, building up.
    For me I look to the tone - and if I can handle it and possibly build up enough foreshadowing that my readers will accept the change then I'll go for it but if I feel like I'm just doing it to be edgy then I'll scrap it.
     
  13. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    1,062
    It's those rare times when you surprise even yourself, and your subconscious mind slips a perfumed note to your thinking mind: "Hello again. Sorry I missed you, but I found that idea you were looking for."
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  14. Intangible Girl

    Intangible Girl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2018
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    444
    I live for those moments.
     
  15. LadyErica

    LadyErica Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    216
    If the story is good, people will read it. If it's not your old fans, then it's new fans. Either way, people will read it. You really don't have to make it more complicated than that.
     
  16. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,088
    Likes Received:
    7,421
    I think it's so much more complicated than that, but I don't think I have any fans. ;)
     
    BayView likes this.
  17. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    844
    Likes Received:
    620
    Location:
    Undecided.
    I don't write the stories I want to read. I write the stories I want to live... Hence all the naked women, beer, and giant robots!
     
  18. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,282
    Likes Received:
    5,805
    Location:
    On the Road.
    I don't believe there is one way to tell the same story. There are a multitude, differing only in circumstances. The writer always has the choice to manipulate setting/history/character/what-have-you to achieve the same, or an even better effect.

    I've been at this edge (what I wanted to write and what would be better for the story) a lot and I've always found what would be better for the story to be better for me, as well. I just had to think long and hard sometimes, but I've always found a solution that satisfied both me and the story.

    Get me right: I don't compromise on the theme I want to tell. I've a very clear picture/feeling what the story is, but if I use one setting or another to achieve a certain effect? That's negotiable.
     
  19. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    I heard John Truby say that he thinks that after the story is worked out but before it is written, that it is important to consider the audience appeal of what you are planning to write. He thinks that most people only have so many trunk novels in them, and if they write too much that people won't read, they will give up and stop writing.

    It doesn't seem like it should be impossible to find things you are passionate about, and that have market appeal, as you are a consumer of media yourself, but then there are a lot of premises that have a lot of problems to work out.
     
    Shenanigator and BayView like this.
  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I could list ten novel ideas off the top of my head, things I really want to write (or at least, to have written). More ideas come at me on a daily basis.

    I absolutely pick the ones I think are most marketable and take the time to write them. The other ideas would be good, too, but... I want to sell!
     
    Shenanigator and John Calligan like this.
  21. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2018
    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    857
    Location:
    Norwich, UK
    Yup, and I always tell myself that my loyalty is to my story and not to myself.
     
    Iain Sparrow likes this.
  22. Just a cookiemunster

    Just a cookiemunster Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2018
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    202
    Location:
    cookie world
    not that I won't take advice or opinions to better my writing but as far as the story and events go, I write purely for me never the audience. Because I get so much joy out of writing what I find pleasurable to me that it will take the fun out of it if I have to change it for what someone else likes. Plus you can NEVER please everyone some will love it and some will hate it no matter what.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice