Hated/Loved cliches in Fantasy

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Kalisto, Jun 27, 2015.

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  1. Lady Marmalade

    Lady Marmalade Member

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    Hmm... nope not seeing any problems with this one ;)

    Okay I kid, but in this specific case this was a historically accurate representation of the Spartans. They were that badass that they went into battle with just a shield and a thong. Yeah, no artistic liberties here, just historical representation.

    You see for me (speaking as a lady here) I don't mind if a character, female or otherwise, is scantily clad. What I think is a problem is when a character is not wearing a plausible outfit just for the sake of marketing. For example if there's a character who is a prostitute it makes sense that they would be dressed provocatively since that's their occupation. Now if a character is supposed to be a knight but they're wearing bikini chainmail, then I have a problem. Not only does it not make sense but it's just stupid and an insult to that character. Unless you can explain why they're wearing bikini chainmail (which rarely happens or it's a horribly stupid reason) it's just a poor character design and narratively/logically doesn't make sense.

    Personally I love characters that take pride in their sexuality, but that's just me. I understand that not everyone is on board with female characters showing off their T/A because to them they think that it's all for the fan service (and it usually is) but sometimes it's because that's who the character is. I think the best example I've seen of this is Michiko Melandro from the show "Michiko to Hatchin". Michiko wears a lot of outfits that most would consider to be "fanservicey" but her character supports her wardrobe decision. She's a criminal and a rebel, she doesn't follow the rules and sometimes she uses her feminine wiles to get what she wants. Also the show takes place in Brazil, and Brazil is hot, there are a lot of other people who are just wearing shorts and a t-shirt so the setting also supports why she isn't covering up. Her wardrobe also reflects her immature behaviour as she's very impulsive and childish throughout the show, but is also very independent and thinks on her feet. The show never directly tells us why she dresses like this, we just explore her character more and get to know her with each episode. In short, she's a crazy badass and doesn't care what other people think of her so she wears what she wants and does what she wants.

    The difference between Michiko and any other fanservice girl is that Michiko has character and her character supports her wardrobe and appearance. A fanservice girl has little to no character, has no reason why they wear next to nothing, and are only there so they can be a walking slab of meat for men to ogle over. This is the difference between writing a character and being a lazy sellout. This rule goes both ways by the way, if there's a guy who is just there for fanservice he's probably going to be forgotten with time just because he has no character. Meanwhile Gerard Butler in a thong... yeah that's kind of hard to forget.

    In short, don't make crappy characters for the sake of fanservice. If you do, don't be surprised if no one likes your character... well maybe they'll like looking at them but personality wise I doubt anyone will remember who they are if you just make them a walking body pillow.
     
  2. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    This just made me realize how wrong I was with regards to the character on the cover of Endurance. She is damned proud to be a woman, and she's a lot more than walking fanservice. Being scantly clad like that is to her what Gerald Butler in a thong is to him. It was wrong of me to presume. :) Thanks for this post, gave me something to think about.
     
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  3. Lady Marmalade

    Lady Marmalade Member

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    Wow, well your welcome then! :-D
    I normally hear people just brush me off for my opinions (this is the internet afterall, I'm used to it) but I'm really flattered that you took the time to read it and keep an open mind. That almost never happens, so thanks to you as well!

    Mad respect yo :cool:
     
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  4. AniGa

    AniGa Member

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    My #1 most hated thing in the fantasy genre is unexplained magic.
    Problem? -> Magic solves it.
    How? ... it's magic, shut up!

    - NO! x[
    Explain your magic! Give it rules! Have it make sense just like any other thing in your fantasy world, like physics or anything else!
    Don't be a lazy bum, make magic make sense! Gawd dannut >.<


    Greets,
    AniGa
     
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  5. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    It's like the meme: "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit."

    Or magic where everyone's at the same level. A fire shield that spans 20 meters? Anyone, even a child, could do that. NO! If magic is taught, then there has to be a grading level for the magic. A child isn't going to create a fire shield that spans 20 meters, maybe a fire shield that covers their bodies at best. An elder mage who had been studying magic for decades should not be at the same level as a child unless it were for a really good reason.
     
  6. CMastah

    CMastah Active Member

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    Some magic is just mildly explained like in the last unicorn to add to the fantasy element (and it worked well in that novel). It never does anything spectacular or particularly useful and is used as a plot device (though if it resolves a conflict, it's only a minor and current one and creates another).
     
  7. AniGa

    AniGa Member

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    I myself work with magic too.
    And you know what my hate for unexplained magic made me do?
    I wrote a freaking seventeen page document about how every little part of that magic works!!
    I didn't leave a single thing out! x[

    Just so I would never catch myself doing what I hate so much! xD


    Greets,
    AniGa
     
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  8. Greenwood

    Greenwood Active Member

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    Hmm, that really is a breath of fresh. Instead of writing what I want to write, I'm going to write what I absolutely won't write. Interesting..I somehow have a feeling this will help a lot. Thanks for the unintended advise!:D
     
  9. Greenwood

    Greenwood Active Member

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    What I "hate" the most in fantasy is, ironically, things that aren't realistic. I.e: things that are poorly thought over and which the author could know won't work by using a bit of logical thought. Not because it's a fantasy, but because even in a fantasy world it still wouldn't work.

    Examples:
    Epic warriors wearing stupid unpractical armor that would get them killed in a real fight.
    Said warriors waving 10 foot, 300 pound zweihanders
    etc.

    Besides that:

    The Mutant Vampiric Immortal Werewolf Head of Assassin Warrior Monks Order of the Dragon(You get my point:))
    Magic that's just there, without being explained or lacking some source or "pool"
    A world in which everyone, from the poorest wretch to the King himself uses magic.
    Stories that make the "poor boy becomes the King in the end" trope blatantly obvious from the start.
     
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don't think you have to explicitly set forth rules for magic in a fantasy world, so long as you understand what they are as the author. No reason magic can't be mysterious and poorly understood to the inhabitants of the world. Whether you have a heavy or light rules system around your magic, you just have to be internally consistent. You don't have to explain it to the reader (though you can).
     
  11. AniGa

    AniGa Member

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    True. But...
    a) You yourself, the author, have to know all the rules, no matter if you ever explain most of them or not.
    b) You have to use this "explained magic" in a way that doesn't make the reader think it's "explained magic" (since then you would just annoy them all the same), in a way that leaves them thinking: "This makes sense (even if I don't understand all of it)!"


    Greets,
    AniGa
     
  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Maybe, at least for certain types of fantasy. Sword and sorcery runs counter to that idea, by its nature as a subgenre. I doubt Robert E. Howard, C.L Moore, and the like had any idea at all about rules for their magic. It was all ad hoc, and those stories as well as their modern equivalents still manage to do well.
     
  13. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

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    The problem is not unexplained or inconsistent magic per se, but magic that breaks any reliable system of cause and effect and thereby invalidates any mental investment the reader puts into the story. Dei ex machina are the classic example of this problem.

    Likewise, the solution is not to explain all the rules of magic to the reader, but to do something twofold: (1) before a character makes a decision, show the reader why the decision matters and let the reader speculate about what consequences the different options might have; (2) after the character makes a decision, depict consequences that either confirm the reader's prediction or contradict it while making the reader think "oh yeah, I never thought of that" instead of "why do I even bother reading?". Even mysterious, unclearly-defined magic can have a place in this system.

    A fantasy novel is not a fantasy game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
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  14. Shattered Shields

    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    I'll tell you a cliche I hate. Romantic drama and love triangles. They drive me absolutely insane. Even more so when the romance is too much of the book. I mean, I can't tell you how annoying it is to read about teenage drama in particular. If I wanted that crap, I'd go back to High School.
     
  15. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Especially if it's in a setting where they are grown adults and should know better. I mean, really? Fully grown adults bickering and smacking at each other like a bunch of teenagers?
     
  16. Shattered Shields

    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    Oh yeah. This is definitely the worst. Whenever I read something in the like of what you described, I'm mentally screaming for them to make up their goddamn minds.
     

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