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  1. Chip

    Chip Member

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    Comma in this position? I don't think so.

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Chip, Oct 31, 2019.

    Another oddity from MS Word Grammar Checker.

    The original sentence:
    MS Word suggests putting a comma after the word "warm":
    I understand the use of commas after an introductory phrase or word, but really, is MS Word Grammar Checker really so inane to think that sentence should have a comma? This appears to be quite common in Word.

    Okay, I'm sure the answer is No, don't use a comma in that position, Word is just weird. I suppose my post is more of a gripe about the Word grammar checker.
     
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  2. The_Joker

    The_Joker Banned

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    That sentence is still wrong though, I think. It should have a colon instead of a comma, right?
     
  3. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Should have a colon where?
     
  4. The_Joker

    The_Joker Banned

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  5. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Ooh no. The words in quotes are dialogue, the dialogue tag is implied so it should be punctuated as such.
     
  6. Chip

    Chip Member

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    Yes, that is what I intended. I believe too many dialog tags just get in the way and most readers skip over them. I also believe if the dialog is clear and understandable without tags telling you who is speaking, then don't use them. From everything I've read it basically comes down to this: use them sparingly and only when it is necessary to indicate who is speaking.
     
  7. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    From under the warm water of the shower: “What babe? Oh, yeah, that’s fine. Sorry, my ears are full of shampoo.”

    The joker is technically correct. The original suggests that this: From under the warm water of the shower, is a dialogue tag. Fair enough. I'd not edit the comma out, but more accurately this is a summary and list of one bit of dialogue. Summary to list is colon. I do this all the time. If I am INTRODUCING dialogue, I consider that a summary, and the dialogue is the list. Very picky, but also spot on. It is often hard for writers to recognize when they are doing this, but with some practice it becomes apparent. I end up using that colon for this kind of application about 1% of my dialogue applications.

    As to the original question, the comma after the adjective is silly. Microsoft is fooling with you. Even if you have two adjectives, you would only use the comma if their order mattered.

    Let me add one more tidbit. I always challenge the phrase that starts with OF THE. Usually you can just add the modifier in front:

    From under the warm shower water.
    Or
    From under the warm shower.

    The OF THE construct will almost always suggest a cleaner approach has been missed.
     
  8. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

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    I've forgotten so much about the English punctuation. Why would a colon be there instead of a semi-colon?

    From under the warm shower; “What babe? Oh, yeah, that’s fine. Sorry, my ears are full of shampoo.”
     
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  9. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    I'm still trying to learn when and how to use semicolons and colons, but from what I've gathered semicolons are used to combine two complete and related sentences.

    Since "From under the warm shower" is not a complete sentence, you shouldn't use a semicolon.

    But as I said I'm still learning and I might be wrong about that.
     
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  10. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    Why I hate MS Word's grammar checker:

    upload_2020-1-26_10-25-29.png
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yep and even more advanced tools like autocrit aren't immune to that sort of thing - i generally use a spell checker but depend on human proofreading for grammar
     
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  12. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Good question. First, it's important to know that these two devices have been relegated to different roles. On a general level (and I recommend the book, A Dash of Style, here), we have the world of pauses and stops. In order, comma, ellipsis, semicolon, colon, period (including question mark and exclamation mark). But that's where people go wrong, when they just think of them that way because we lose sight of the special applications given over time.

    Semicolon: Two primary uses.

    One is to separate lists of lists. Such as this: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    There you have three lists of things that the author hopes to include in the law, but also show some kind of difference between groups of items. We have three categories, free exercise of beliefs, free ability to express views and free ability to address the government regarding issues.

    Two, the semicolon allows you to put two related independent clauses (think sentences) together without a comma and conjunction. The idea is to say to the reader that these two sentences are so unusually related that we hope to promote that relationship (oddly a little opposite from what it is doing in separating lists). Once writers figure this out, they start to attach sentences all over the book. Then, after a while of this, they realize that part of writing is to almost always show relationships as the sentences flow, so it's overbearing to keep showing that with semicolons. As well, usually writers have more of a problem with too many long sentences, rather than too many short ones, so it's counter productive. The writer then backs off and uses semicolons much more sparingly for this application.

    Colon: For the most part they show a relationship between a list and a summary, or summary and list. That list can be one thing, as well. So, you summarize fruit and list apples, pears and grapes: I went to the store to buy some fruit: apples, pears and grapes.

    In conjunction with dialogue, colons are quite often uses in script writing, where the goal is for the actor to see that dialogue quickly. In fiction, some of us use it to show that summary to list as it applies to dialogue, wherever such a thing raises its head. Example:

    Sometimes when John got around his crew, he turned into an ass: "Bitch, get me a beer."

    So, the summary that John can sometimes be an ass has this one nasty example of dialogue attached to it that is a list of one, dropping us straight into scene. The summary is acting like a dialogue tag, but it's actually a sentence of thought.

    And again, with these things the list to summary can be reversed, sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  13. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

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    I love this explanation! Very vivid and full of information. I feel like I have a more solid grasp on the use of colons and semicolons. I've never had the brain for learning by reading explanations. I'm much more of a tactile learner, so I'd have to see more examples and get practice using them to fully understand, but the explanation you provided is quite helpful.
     
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