Hi again guys, Just looking for some opinions and advice. This is a very early concept but I like the idea enough to explore it, only I'm not sure if it makes sense. This is a Fantasy novel and my main character, Alice, was created by magic to be a perfect donor for another young girl who was ill. Alice was expected to give blood, bone marrow and organs to this girl. But now in their late teens, Mina's heart is failing and in order for her to be saved, Alice will have to give her own heart and die in the process. Alice feels she has suffered enough for this girl, but as a medical clone has no rights in the eyes of the authorities to deny giving it. Force will be used if necessary. But my main problem is: Why create a clone from magic? Why not do it as we do today and just ask for blood and organs from someone else? Mina's mother is using a mixture of magic and medicine to save her daughter (medicine is not as advanced in this land) and heart transplant is still a work in progress. It can be achieved but the operation isn't perfect yet. I just think there are a lot of flaws with this concept alone that need to be worked through before I can get into any detailed planning. Can anyone help with this? I have looked around and even asked some people if they know any fantasy novels with this as an idea and nobody said they did. I was hoping to see how others had handled it for inspiration. I don't know how to go about making it work. Any advice? Thank you
If you look at the Dune universe (Frank Herbert) the work that was done (fan fic) by Brian Herbert with Kevin J Anderson touches on taking organs and limbs from wounded soldiers to repair wealthy citizens.....at least if memory serves. In the realm of "real life" check out the film, "Something the Lord made" with Alan Rickman and Mos Def - it's about the first heart surgery (or transplant?) In North America. Real life parallels are when a family has one child with a disease and they get pregnant with a second or third child in hopes of finding a compatible donor for the ill child - bone marrow for example. As for your question, "why create a clone from magic?" Religious opposition to cloning? Only "God" can create life? Maybe "magic" clones are not viewed as competing with God for some reason......they're not really "alive" for example? Scott
I think this would be better suited for the science fiction genre. She was cloned by advanced technology and the book is less about the magic and more about the ethical implications of cloning? Of course, write the story you want to write. Just my two cents.
Cdn Writer - this is set in another world so God doesn't come into it. That's not to say there aren't any Gods. But it's worth thinking of. I was referring more to just using humans that exist to be donors like we do today. Aaron Smith - thanks for the suggestion. Ethnics will come into it as the clone is still a life, even if it was created by magic. I like the idea of magical cloning because I feel the Science angle has been explored before in sci-fi. And the actual plot I have is more Fantasy than Sci. While I do explore the value of a life it's not the main focus.
Maybe it's a world that's turned away from science and technology and toward magic. Maybe it was determined that pure science is amoral and lacking because it has no moral compass. Or she lives in an area where that's the case. Grew up in a magic cult (a cult of the occult)?
Xoic - my world is actually reversed. For the story to work, Magic is the thing people have turned away from and is under threat as Science is providing more oppotinities that are presented as moral, ethical, trust-worthy and requires no large payment while actually being headed by greedy people who want money. Science requires money payments where as magic can request more valuable payment and includes more sacrifice. Maybe it's more to do with the Mother's beliefs. As the richest woman in the kingdom, paying for medicine isn't an issue for her. The witch providing the service is out for her own gain. This Mother keeps coming to her for help with different things so the debt is piling up. Maybe the witch manipulates her into thinking this path would be best?
I can think of a couple of novels and a movie you should check out. Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro Spoiler Kids are grown for exactly this purpose. My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picoult (Parents have a second kid to serve as a donor for their first.) and the film The Island (more of an escape adventure, but on point.) None of those are fantasy, but substitute magic for science, and you'll find something like you're suggesting. I don't think you have to worry about whether the magic part makes sense. I think in a world with magic, spells and potions would be mixed right in with medical science. Why perfect a procedure with a scalpel when magic works better? It doesn't mean science wouldn't advance. Maybe magic creates a more perfect double. Makes sense to me.
Hold on is the witch you’re referring to the same one who uses magic to create the clone to save Mina? Except the clone who you call Alice is helping Mina out begrudgingly? I guess it’s a little strange coming from Alice and I think maybe the struggle you have is presenting it from her perspective in a convincing way. You could do this that she is made from magic but what is her identity all about? And does she struggle to identify with her own identity and how do clones perceive other people? Why is she not wanting to help Mina when that’s the purpose she’s been created for by the magic? Bringing out all the concepts through your story-telling, as you will eventually do, may be challenging. I think it’s a good idea but I could see where you could be struggling understanding these complicated characters but over time (and through your story writing progress) I think you’ll begin to start to answer these questions you are asking yourself. You’ll begin to see her better the further you go in your writing. I wouldn’t change any of the plans you’ve laid out. Just put her through different instances and see how it works out .
I can think of a couple of novels and a movie you should check out. Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picoult (Parents have a second kid to serve as a donor for their first.) and the film The Island (more of an escape adventure, but on point.) Someone did recommend “Never Let me Go.” as it's also been made a movie now, but that was more sci and I know about My sister's keeper so intend to order them because my library is closed. I'll also check out the film The Island as I have heard about it . So thank you for the recommendations but I was more interested in cloning done via magic in a Fantasy setting. People were able to give me sci-fi but not much that was Fantasy. And thanks for your feedback but appreciated.
Yes it's the same witch. Alice has her own mind. She was created to help Mina and that's her soul purpose in life as far as anyone else is concerned, but Alice wants her own identity. She wants a purpose besides living or dying to service another. It's not so much the help she begrudges but the suffering she goes through after these operations and no one caring what she thinks. She doesn't want to give her life up. She's not a robot that is endlessly selfless. She's a young girl who's never had a chance to live her own life. She has her own dreams for her future that will now, never happen. She resents being treated less than a living thing. It's less about Mina and more about the treat and expectations of her. Just because she was created for this purpose doesn't mean she has to like or accept it. Giving Mina her heart means she'll die. She maybe a clone but she still has a desire to live. No one is asking Mina what she wants either. Her Mother wants her to live. The Doctors want another "test" subject to perform a transplant on. Alice wants to live and have control over her own life. She intends to try and save Mina in a different way that doesn't involve herself dying. Alice is by no ones a heroic or perfect character. She's quite selfish and thins of herself first because nobody else does. Hope that clears things up
But my main question was: Why bother with medical clones? Why not just use willing donors or dead organ donors like we do? That's the main problem I wanted to answer.
If it's been done, that's news to me, although I don't read a lot of sword and sorcery series, so who knows. I think your idea is unique, which is great, even if it limits the examples from which you can draw. I would just roll with the sci-fi-ness of it all, substituting magic as the method. Have you seen The City of Lost Children? There's a fairy tale quality to the science of cloning that makes it almost magic. If you haven't seen it, do. It might inspire something. ETA: It also happens to be my favorite movie ever.
Possibly scientific cloning has been outlawed? It could be for political or for Humanist reasons, like the way it is in our own world. They'll grow ears on the backs of mice and clone goats, but nobody is going to even attempt human cloning unless it's a strictly underground, black market kind of thing probably done on a private island way out in international waters, and even then if any government (officially) got wind of it, they'd be immediately shut down and lots of arrests made. For the very reasons your story seems to be built around; the ethics of creating human beings whose existence is legally and paternalistically in a grey zone. So maybe there's an underground, black market trade in magical cloning. That might be a lot easier to do in secret then a big scientific facility that would be impossible to hide, filled with expensive equipment and employing lots of people. Perhaps magical cloning just takes a few roots and herbs, a few words, and presto change-o, one new clone at your disposal. Pay the old witch a few chickens and goats or whatever they demand and they leave never to trouble you again. You don't have to worry about them talking, since if they did they'd be just as much in peril as you for their part in it.
Thank you so much for your time. I find it hard to believe cloning hasn't been done in Fantasy before. I was surprised when people went....ummmm. Can't think of any. When I come up with something unique I always worry. It's like why has no one done this before? I've heard of that movie but never seen it. So I'll add it to my list. Currently getting into Dystopian and Sci-fi movies.
Yeah, it's easy to rule out Scientific cloning using morals and even belief. But why would this Mother request a magical clone when she could just do what we do in this world. Wait for a donor heart to become available. Or have others give blood. We have people in this world who give blood. So why aren't others humans doing it? That's my problem.
Ohhhh ok, I see. Well, you did say their technology is well behind ours—maybe they haven't figured out blood types and Rh factor yet, and don't understand why some transplants and transfusions work and some don't take and kill the subject.
And LOL that's my basic idea. It's all very sneaky. Magic and magical people are not in abundance in this world. Some are very against it because people always fear what they don't understand. But it can solve problems that medicine and science can't so when people get desperate enough, they will go in search of it. But it's a mysterious and sometimes dark world and has to operate in secret.
I thought that, or maybe there is a blood virus or something that can be transmitted. So to take blood of random willing donors would then require it to be tested to ensure it's not going to infect someone who doesn't have it. It just seems odd to me that they have figured out how to do a heart transplant, even if it is knew, but haven't figured out blood types yet. Wouldn't they need to do something like that in order to match the new heart to the patient.
Hmm... maybe heart transplants are very iffy, like a 50 % chance, but if you go to a witch doctor immediately after they can make it work properly, just can't let officials know about it. Or the witching could even be done beforehand, otherwise the patient would probably die on the operating table. Does the transplant have to be done medically?
Xoic - I guess it doesn't have to be done medically. But my plan was that you could either go to a witch or wizard to cure a problem you have or you could go to a physician. The two sides don't willingly mesh and are kind of in competition with each other. But this Mother is so desperate she's doing what is maybe outlawed or never been done before. Which is use magic to create a clone for an absolute perfect match for her daughter. Then use Science to take the blood, cells, bone marrow, organs and give them to her daughter. That was my idea. But it's still in early works yet.
Which also brings up the problem that if Magic can create a clone why can't it also provide a heart transplant. This idea is going to be impossible to figure out.
Well, if it's well known that somebody has a bad heart and suddenly they're better, local authorities would probably start investigating. So getting as much as possible done medically would be sort of like money laundering, to clean up your tracks and throw off suspicion. But whenever necessary she augments with magic in secret. She could even have the clone made and tell everyone it's another daughter, maybe she even faked a pregnancy in order to pull it off. Which brings up the question why couldn't she just actually have another daughter and use her for replacement parts. Maybe after the first daughter she wasn't able to conceive anymore, so did it magically. Or, I'm not sure if being a sibling automatically means you can be a donor? Seems likely but I don't know.
Well, her husband died shortly after the birth of Mina, so any other child she has would be by another man and so only Mina's half sister. Not sure if that would qualify her. I thought about them being twins? But then using one daughter to support the life of another, to the point you expect one to give up their heart to let the other live - that's a dark Mother. Maybe she could be my main antagionist! But then I'd have to think of another way for Alice to have magic that Mina doesn't. Exactly, she's getting as much done medically as possible. Her daughter and herself are important and in the public eye a lot so she has to tread carefully.
She's got a weird blood type/genetic flaw/medical condition that makes traditional transplants problematic. That happens to real people all the time.
Good idea, Homer! If a clone is a copy of someone else. Wont they also just have all the same problems. So if Mina has say, heart failure all her life, wont her clone have it as well?
