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  1. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Heroes are Psychopaths

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by John Calligan, Oct 30, 2018.

    I've been trying to figure out how to write a short story about a guy who does anime style violence.

    Warning for violence and language:

    "Nothing personal. It's just, revenge."

    There is a lot written about the steps the US military has gone through to get its soldiers to shoot at the enemy with the intention of killing them. Besides training, propaganda, hate, distance, and viewing the enemy through a scope or screen are all effective ways of helping someone kill, though many people who kill due to their training later come to suffer from PTSD when they have had time to reflect on what happened.

    At the same time, there have always been a small percentage of soldiers and fighter pilots who seem to do a great deal of the killing. Supposedly in WW2, 1% of fighter pilots were responsible for 40% of enemy planes shot down.

    According to this website, 1% of the population are psychopaths: https://www.livescience.com/16585-psychopaths-speech-language.html

    I've heard that something like 20% of people in prison are psychopaths, and they alone account for 80% of all the crimes committed.

    It seems like being a psychopath would be a huge advantage in warfare. Vice has an article about how psychopaths make great killers, but often have a hard time making it in the highly structured military environment:
    Anyway, I bring all this up because the hero in many stories about warfare seem to be psychopaths. Achilles. Conan. Rambo. Afro Samurai. Jack Reacher.

    It seems...fun...to write about warfare from the psychopath's POV because you can have dramatic fight scenes with an uninhibited character who doesn't struggle with guilt or shame after the killing is done.

    Is that what is going on with most action / adventure stories? Are they often about psychopaths? Are psychopaths the best literary heroes for adventure fiction? Are there scenarios where someone can routinely knife up a bunch of dudes and be fine with it, without being a psychopath?
     
  2. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    No, they're not. Well, maybe Afro Samurai, because I have no idea who that is.

    They might share a few traits with psychopaths, but they're nothing like a real one.
     
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  3. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

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    "Psychopathy" is largely an old, out dated term. Besides, there is not "he is a psychopath" is it more like: At what level are you?

    Most people will often factor somewhere along the psychopathy/sociopathy scale, but they may not register enough to be a problem - and may be small enough to be considered normal.
     
  4. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I personally believe in the inherent good within people. Or maybe I just hope, but I digress. In fiction, these heroes do what they do mostly for noble reasons.

    To me it seems as if 'fictional heroes' who lack the assorted emotions and troubles that can come from killing, even in self defense, would either come from
    • the author's conscious exclusion of these emotions: After all, fiction should be enjoyable, shouldn't it? There are loads of books/analyses out there, arguing that combat roots people in their tribe, gives them a sense of belonging. It is good to protect what you love. It is good to find acceptance when you protect someone. No one wants to read about the accompanying shame/regret/anger/self-doubt afterwards. Well done, bro.
    • the author's unconscious exclusion of these emotions: Thing is that our society and cultural programming says 'do not kill', and I believe that most people would have trouble overcoming this programming. They can't even imagine what it means for their self. It's so far out of what we're supposed to do, that even if we try to imagine, it will come out unrealistic. And there you have it: Fiction.
    A psychopath is someone else entirely.
     
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  5. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I'm sure you are right that most authors, especially of adventure fiction, are just trying to write a good story. They might not care if the behaviors and emotions modeled in their character don't really look like a real person. But let's pretend for a second that either they think they are doing a good job modeling, or that they are trying to model some sort of believable person.

    What sort of true to life person are they aiming for?
     
  6. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Then my second point applies. Mostly. As said, I believe in inherent good and I believe that most people do as well.
     
  7. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    You hope too much.

    There is no inherent goodness in human beings, but there is also no inherent evilness in human beings either. When one is born, they are a blank slate or rather, a blank canvas waiting to be painted with influences, experiences, sensations and ideas from external sources such as families, friends, schools, jobs, media, literature, the environment and geography and so on. The only reason why we do experience negative-type emotions is because of the survival instincts that has been embedded deep within our brains since the inception of the human race. Our survival instincts are triggered by two things and two things only; conflict and competition.

    Figure out how to create a society that does not have any competition or conflict and you'll have figured out how to create a society that is more or less like the fantasy Utopia that everybody talks about. There is one way of preventing competition and conflict and that is by eliminating currency, religion, culture and governments from human society whilst keeping all the knowledge and technology around and at the same time, breeding an entire generation of newborn humans that have no clue about the past to lead as the people of this new society.

    It might not be a pleasant truth about the human race but it's the truth and it's a hell lot better than the idea that human beings are just inherently evil because that means there's absolutely nothing we can do about them. Besides mental illness and neurological disorders, this all applies to your everyday, normal human being.
     
  8. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Please people, let's discuss writing here, not philosophy :)
     
  9. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    This entire discussion is about philosophy.
     
  10. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    There's a lot more to psychopathy than just violence and lack of reflection on it. A manipulative nature, lack of empathy (though they can feign it), extreme promiscuity, inflated sense of self worth, pathological lying, and more. There's a twenty item test that a subject has to score at least 30 out of 40 on to be considered one. For context, Ted Bundy got a 39. I can't speak for all the characters mentioned, but Conan and Achilles don't hit enough of the other requirements of psychopathy.

    With some of the characters you mentioned (Achilles and Conan), one has to remember the difference in socialization. In their settings, which are far more savage than our modern times, if you're not ready to do violence there's a good chance you're going to fall victim to other people who are.

    Modern Western society condemns violence in the vast majority of instances, but ancient peoples tended to glorify the warrior (some more than others). That likely accounts for at least some of the resistance exhibited by modern recruits to killing. And explains the less troubled attitude characters from settings patterned on the pre-modern world have toward killing.

    Other than that, Lifeline summed up my views on the topic.
     
  11. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    That’s an interesting idea, if I read you right. That the psychological damage caused by doing violence, for most people in our time, wouldn’t be there if they were raised in a time and place that required and praised violence.

    Isn’t that one of the differences beteeen psycho and sociopaths? Sociopaths are made, while psychopaths are born, and people raised in dangerous places gain sociopathic traits.
     
  12. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Not so much that the damage wouldn't be there as the fact that the resistance to killing would be lower, and career warriors like Achilles or Conan would have already dealt with whatever impact killing had on them well before the story starts.
     
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  13. Maggie May

    Maggie May Active Member

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    Resistance to killing, we do see resistance by vets talk to some from the Viet Nam era. With all the blood shed and carnage they saw many today won't touch a weapon. There has to be the right mix of or lack of personality/thought/moral to create the "perfect" killing machine. Example, Ted Bundy did not kill every girl he met. If he was killing with no thought then what stopped him from doing exactly that. That being said, I do not know if I would read a story where the character is without emotion and kills without thought.
     
  14. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    In war the most important thing is not a soldier but the social system that is constructed via many solders.

    In that machinery there are two things that are more important than others:
    1. The chain of commands.
    2. The chain of reports.

    The chain of commands is for men to know what to do.

    The chain of reports is for the leaders to know what to decide and command.

    If you have a psychopath or a narcissistic person in this dual direction chain, that chain has a fracture or is broken. And that is bigger problem than any amount of killing a single soldier can do.

    And...

    When I was younger all the men that were at the same age than my father had been in war against Soviet Union. And very, very many of them had done some killing.

    Those men did not tell us younger much. But something leaked while years went by. And via that I know this:

    Very, very many of the best and resolute men were shy, quiet and humble men that just did what they had to do to protect their country, loved and pals.

    Their options were these:

    "Stay here and die or stay here and survive. Retreat is forbidden. There are no lines of defence behind you. There are no reserves. Keep these positions at any cost."

    They had molotov coctails against Soviet tanks. And they stopped those tanks or died trying. No one needed to teach them to kill. It was us or them.

    Our late president - shy and humble man - served in Infantry Detachment Törni that operated behind enemy lines. (Americans might know Törni by the name Larry A. Thorne. They even made some movies about him.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauno_Koivisto

    Simo... "I just made what I was ordered as well as I could."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä

    The best were silent guys like Airo.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksel_Airo

    I can figure out only one exception. Solder that might fit to the psychopathy description but still was good and effective in what he did.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Törni

    And a movie about him... (NOT a documentary.)

     
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  15. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    No.
     
  16. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    That's not at all what I mean by "resistance to killing". I mean resistance to the act in general, not resistance to killing any specific individual. Ted Bundy didn't kill every woman he crossed paths with, but he had zero moral qualms about murdering one that caught his fancy.

    Meanwhile, modern militaries have to put a lot of effort into getting their soldiers to the point where they are willing to kill people who are trying to kill them.

    Contrast that with, say, Spartan culture, where martial skill was regarded as the highest virtue and Spartan boys were expected to kill a helot without getting caught as part of their right of passage into manhood.
     
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  17. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

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    Would you care to elaborate on your comment/notes?



    In regards to the original topic. As it has already been established, I do not think there is any major trend in regarding to having psychopaths as heroes. Psychopaths are very difficult to relate to because they, at their very nature, do not care about others — at least not in the way normal people do.

    There are also those whom rank fairly high (or ever quite low) within a psychopathic spectrum but have, through therapy, prolonged exposure to society or otherwise learned to “fake” being normal. If they were to sit a test, they may well appear to be normal. They may not actually care about others but they may fake it. Most psychopaths rarely ever admit to be one, but it has been my experience that admitting it is better since everyone then know where you stand. It also takes the hassle out of faking it since you no longer have to pretend to care.

    But in regards to heroes, I think the term “jaded” or “cold hearted” might be more accurate then psychopathic. And certainly there has been a general trend in having a main character or supporting character who is the jaded type. For example in a war film you may have that grizzly veteran of dozens of battles seemingly appearing altogether unconcerned with the current situation whilst people around them are loosing their minds,
     
  18. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    A lot of real heroes have "low arousal states," which means that it takes more to get them scared/excited or whatever than it does the average person. Many, many combat veterans have mentioned that combat feels more "real" than anything they've ever done before or since, and some of them have a yearning to return to that intense place in the same way you or I might have the yearning to take another ride on the roller coaster. However, this doesn't mean that killing is easy for them, or that they like it, just that they're more "there" when their lives are in danger, which further leads to problems in their lives afterwards. Audie Murphy spent the rest of his life gambling and drinking and, IIRC, went into bankruptcy at one point after making millions in Hollywood.

    In addition, many fictional heroes suffer from variants of PTSD, it just gets edited out by Hollywood or forgotten by audiences. First Blood was all about a guy who couldn't adjust coming back from Vietnam, but the movie version of that skimmed a lot of it off in favor of "Hero vet vs Evil Sheriff," and the follow-on movies spiraled down from there. The final John Rambo movie started out okay but then turned into a self-righteous gorefest.

    OP mentioned something similar, but if you haven't, I recommend On Killing by Dave Grossman, which details the training techniques developed by the US Army to get soldiers to be willing and able to attempt to take lives. An interesting companion book is Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People by John Conroy. It shows how otherwise ordinary people can be trained to be torturers. On Killing addresses some of the early measures taken to address PTSD, such as the time it took prior to Vietnam for soldiers to "get back to the world" in which they could talk out their experiences with their peers, and the importance of parades and awards in socially justifying what would have otherwise been criminal acts of violence.
     
  19. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    To me it looks like Iain has knowledge and/or understanding about this topic.

    I can't prove this and this is more opinion than knowledge, but...

    US Army and many other armies use methods that might be important reason to high amount of PTSD. Different kind of methods could be more effective and have less side effects.
     
  20. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    My google searches must have pushed this to the top of my recommended videos list, which is kinda funny. God bless AI.

    He has an interesting take on the subject. Spoiler warning--Shad gets all intellectual dark web on the differences between men and women about half way through. I'm all filled up on Steven Pinker content so I didn't watch past that point.

     
  21. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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  22. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Nothing beyond a casual reader level and some work in a high-stress job (9-1-1 emergency dispatch) in my misspent youth. There are no medals on my chest, I assure you.
     
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  23. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

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    Just because there isn't any medals, didn't mean you didn't see any "action". As far as we know, you could be the head of your local branch yakuza. Also, I think that perhaps this thread has been derailed just slightly off course.

    Also, just thought that I would link in another thread on the WF that is kind of similar to this and might want to be checked out if anyone in interested.

    But in return to the original topic at hand, I have troubles coming up with psychopathic heroes or characters (as in protagonists) in general. I could name some (thought not a lot) that are villains or general "baddies" whether or not they truly are antagonists.

    Perhaps the only character I could name without doing some research is Roscharch II "Reggie" (watchmen), thought he is not a movie character as far as I am aware - and not even sure if he really classifies as a psychopath instead of just 'mentally deranged'.

    So perhaps there isn't any really trope. Maybe someone should write a story about a psychopath managing every-day life. Could be interesting to people to see how they/he reacts and behaves compare to what [the reader(s)] would do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  24. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Haven't read the books, but Dexter is one, and Thomas Harris certainly blurred the line between hero and villain with Hannibal Lecter in whichever book had Mason Verger capture him.
     
  25. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    This isn’t directed at any comment. I wanted to point out that when I said, “psychopath,” I wasn’t necessarily including sadists. Many psychopaths, most even, don’t take pleasure in hurting people, and don’t seek it out—they just aren’t bothered by it.
     

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