1. LikE MiNdEd

    LikE MiNdEd New Member

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    Hi everyone. I'm new here. Would like some advice.

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by LikE MiNdEd, Oct 26, 2019.

    I am going to be starting a fantasy book series based on Ninjas. The thing is I don't know if I should base it in the origin of place where ninjas were formed, which is Japan. I have never been and I'm not Japanese. I wanted to create my own ninja world but keep the tradition of the ninja but mix with elementary magic etc.

    The reason for me wanting advice is because I do not want to offend the culture.
     
  2. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

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    If you're creating your own "ninja world", do the characters necessarily have to be ninjas? Can't they be an order of your own creation that are based on elements of the culture? Take Star Wars, for example. The Jedi order is loosely based on the practices of Bhuddist monks while retaining it's own distinct identity.
     
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  3. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    OK... first question.

    How much do you know about real ninjas?

    And how historically accurate do you want your story to be?

    Because if you want it to be accurate, ninjas didn't exist. I don't mean to sound rude, but from a historian's point of view, that statement is really, really important, regardless of what supposed modern ninjutsu practitioners or Stephen Turnbull may tell you.

    The Iga ninja musuem in Japan does not have a *single* "straight bladed ninja sword" dating from the period that they were supposedly active.

    If your story is a fantasy, then it's really up to you. If you don't know anything about Japan. don't set a story there - Japan is so alien to anyone who isn't familiar with it, the story won't come across as believable to anyone familiar with the country.
     
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  4. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    Can't remember where I read or heard it, but it was some scholar saying that the concept of ninjas as glamorous masked assassins wearing black skulking around on rooftops and carrying swords is a modern myth. The real ninjas (I remember him saying they did exist), were more likely to go undercover and get hired on as servants to their political enemies. Your historical ninja, once he had worked his way into his master's trust and become a servant of the bedchamber, would creep up and slit the master's throat as he slept.

    Effective, but not too heroic.

    So for the OP, figure out what you want your order or whatever they are to accomplish, and make them up accordingly.
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'd go with the idea of using the concept of Ninjas (either real or imaginary)—but call them something else, don't connect them to Japan at all (as you don't know the place) ...and write whatever you want.

    That way, instead of having an awkward copy of other people's Ninja ideas that folks can shoot holes through—not to mention a Japan that folks who know the country are going to have huge issues with—you'll have created a world and a society that's totally your own. Nobody can argue with any of it.

    Taking that Star Wars example. What if Lucas had decided to call his Jedi 'Buddhist Monks,' instead of just basing the IDEA for the organisation on real Buddhist monks? EEE-yipes. Instead, he made up another name for his organisation and let the concept build into what HE wanted for his story. And no Buddhist monks were upset or insulted by any of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  6. LoaDyron

    LoaDyron Contributor Contributor

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    Hello, friend. :superhello:

    Do some research about ninjas to see who they were and how the lords used them back in time. Then decide if you want to use the traditional or to create tour own, or even use both. Keep in mind that if you're going to create your own ninjas, you have to have an idea about them.

    I hope this helps. Have a lovely day. :supercool:
     
  7. AnimalAsLeader

    AnimalAsLeader Active Member

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    If you want to have a ninja-like order as it is depicted in modern cinema, you're not going to offend any culture, because it's just pure fiction.

    the same would apply, if you named your order "assassins", because modern depictions of those (e.g assassin's creed) have nothing to do with the actual shiite hashishim order from history.

    I'd say you can be pretty liberal with this and create what you like.
     
  8. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    A short history of ninjas.

    The word "ninja" is an alternate reading of the chinese characters that make up "shinobi no mono" (忍びの者). This phrase was used to refer to spies. Anyone could be a shinobi - a scout sent to check out enemy positions, a travelling salesman gathering info on an enemy daimyo's domain, a ronin sent undercover into another lord's service or yes, an assassin too. The famous poet Matsuo Basho was rumoured to be a shinobim as he gathered information on various lords during his travel around the country, which he would relay back to the shogunate. The first use of the word "ninja" dates from the mid 18th century.

    A parallel would be modern spies. Spies really don't all dress in tuxedos and drink vodka martinis, shaken not stirred. They're quite often ordinary people who happen to work in an area of interest to a foreign power, sometimes in menial jobs.

    The myth of the Iga ninja probably stems from the Sengoku period. The province of Iga is, even today, a VERY rugged and heavily forested place, with narrow mountain trails and deep gorges. Take a train through it and you'll see the magnificent - and dangerous scenery. Oda Nobunaga sent a few thousand men to try and subdue the Rokkaku clan. The men vanished without trace. Ninjas? No, the defenders simply used their local knowledge to ambush the invaders, push them down ravines, drop rocks on their heads or they were simply eaten by bears. Thus, the legend of Iga super-warriors was born. Nobunaga was unimpressed - his next invasion involved tens of thousands of men, who burnt the place to the ground.

    The black ninja costume was, in fact, the costume of stage hands in kabuki theatre, These stage hands are known as "kuroko", and they dress in black to indicate to the audience that they are not part of the action on the stage. An actor who wishes to indicate that he was hidden and out of sight would also wear the costume,. So, in plays involving assassins, the actor would wear black while he was sneaking up to kill someone before popping up "out of the shadows" as it were. In the cinema era, this was seen and misunderstood as it being the costume that the assassins wore - and the Japanese are just as bad at this misconception as Hollywood.

    This is probably the most famous "ninja", Hattori Hanzo.
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, he is depicted as a samurai, because that's what he was. His reputation as a ninja comes frm the fact that he came from Iga and led Tokugawa Ieyasu through Iga back to safety, using his links with the local clans. He known as a skilled spearman - if you visit the Sainen-ji in Tokyo, you can see his spear and helmet.

    Hope that helps as a starting point for your research, id you want to make your novel historical.
     
  9. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Definitely create your own fantasy world for this. But don't be afraid to research to do it!
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'm a historical fiction fan, and this sounds like a real opportunity if somebody wanted to write a novel based on real ninjas and/or their precursors. Wow.

    The older I get, the more I believe that real history is actually richer and more interesting than anybody's fantasy. Truth IS often stranger than fiction! :)
     
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  11. LazyBear

    LazyBear Banned

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    While Japan focused a lot on family honor, the Ninjas who were outnumbered used any dirty trick to win a fight. This means that a modern ninja would likely use any weapon and technique that's effective without caring about honesty nor sportsmanship (Putin style black ops without flags). Rather than showing off sword skills, they might use spy gadgets, poison you and make it look like a heart attack before you've met them.
     
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  12. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I'm an amateur historian. Although my specialty is Japanese history, I'm interested in all time periods, and I find that truth IS stranger than fiction. Some of the stuff that happens in history you just couldn't make up. Humans always find innovative ways to screw each other over.
     
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  13. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Japanese honour is very different to the European concept of honour. Honour basically meant winning. Dirty tricks, backstabbing, betrayal were rife in Japanese history, and if you won, you were honourable.

    The archetypical ronin was Miyamoto Musashi. During his famous dyel at Ganryu island, he turned up late to annoy and put off his opponent, then once he won the duel, ran away to escape his vengeful students.

    Guns? The samurai loved guns.

    An apocryphal story about ninjas. The daimyo Uesugi Kenshin died on his toilet, probably of a stroke as he was a heavy drinker. The story goes that a ninja hid down his toilet, and when the unfortunate daimyo's bottom hove into view, shoved a sword up it.
     
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  14. LazyBear

    LazyBear Banned

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    Hagakure does mention honor from winning itself, but the fifth point of the Bushido code also values honesty. A bit like when people hated Putin for lying to media while his Russian people cheered for the land grab itself. Depends on which side you're cheering for.
     
  15. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    The Hagakure is really not a good source. It was written by a man who himself wasn't a successful samurai, who was hankering for the "good old days, when men were men".

    Yamamoto Tsunemoto was a minor functionary who lived after the warring period was over and the country was at peace. He always felt that he had missed his chance to win honours in battle, and the Hagakure was his "big work" that was supposed to bring him to the attention of his lord Nabeshima Mitsushige. It was all but forgotten about for centuries until teh Japanese state revived "State Shinto" and the supposed Bushido code, the same code that led thousands of young men to charge to their deaths in the face of Allied machine gun fire during WW2.

    There are passages in it that are implicit criticisms of the Tokugawa shogunate. If it had been made public at the time, Tsunemoto would have been executed.

    Bushido is a myth, perpetuated by the post-Meiji Japanese military government as a form of brainwashing.

    The house codes of various daimyo gives a much better insight into samurai life and practices.
     
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  16. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    The primary tenet of Bushido as promulgated by the Tokugawa shogunate was loyalty above everything else. Not honour in battle, but loyalty to one's lord and masters.

    The Tokugawa had seen the effects of disloyalty firsthand, above all during the battle of Sekigahara when half the enemy contingent had defected to their side, while others simply did nothing or went home. They didn't want to be on the receiving end, and now that the country was at peace, they had millions of armed men with nothing to do.

    So what did they do? They told them all that to be a good samurai, one had to be loyal and do what they were told. And the samurai class bought it hook, line, and sinker.

    I'm sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread and turning it into a history lesson, but if he's looking to make his story an accurate portrayal of Japan, I hope it's useful as research, and I'll shut up now.
     
  17. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    I have a similar challenge in my WIP based loosely on the hussars of Hungary. My characters are like a special ops team for Poland’s army. I still use the time period and the places and the battles but my characters and the role they play in the conflict or fabricated. When I wrote my first Historical Fiction novel, I was never sure how far I could bend the historical references, so this time I am adding a fantasy portion to include a healer that can restore the health of any warrior as long as he is still alive. That adds tension to have the warrior make it back alive to the healer who can’t leave a sacred area.
     

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