1. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Horses. I don't know anything.

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Not the Territory, Jun 3, 2021.

    Frankly I don't know shit about horses. When I was very young, we 'babysat' some for a neighbour. The most I learned was not to stand behind them and not to fork with them in general.

    Does anyone know of a particularly helpful book/guide on horses, horse behaviour, and maintenance? Particularly with reference to medieval/early classical period and/or warfare? I feel that I'm missing opportunities to make it more believable, and falling into pitfalls that make it less believable.

    For example, how receptive would a courser be to being 'commandeered' by an enemy in battle's heat? I don't even know where to begin. Would the enemy likely get bucked off? Is that largely or only somewhat dependent upon the horse's personality/sex?
     
  2. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Me either. Going only by popular expressions, they're healthy, hung, and pee a lot... particularly the racing variety.
     
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  3. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    You bastard. You made me laugh.
     
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  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    A couple of things I know:

    My friend's uncle had horses and let us ride once, and this is the first thing he taught us—you don't pull on the reigns to get them to turn, you instead gently lay them against the neck. They'll turn away from the side you lay the reigns on. So it ends up looking like people are pulling the way they want to go.

    Also, it's very hard to get horses to plow into or run over people. It goes against their nature. I think I learned this from something Leonardo wrote, or an exegesis on it. Certain war horses were trained for it, but they had to be cruelly abused in order to learn it, and even still some refused.
     
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  5. dedebird

    dedebird Member

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    Well I don't have any specific source material, but I have been riding over half my life. I can attempt to answer any questions!

    As long as the enemy knows how to ride, I would think the horse would have no problem being "commandeered". Of course, some horses, and certain breeds, have stronger personalities. If it is important to your storyline that someone tries this and gets bucked off I would write in that the enemy had no idea how to ride or was exceedingly cruel to the horse. However, if these were war horses they probably had special training.

    So, the term for that is "neck reining" and its actually something that is taught to western horses, and proper neck reining involves using your legs as aids. Most horses only know direct reining, but I'm not an expert on medieval horse riding and it would take some research for me to discover what type of riding they did in that time period. OP it would be beneficial if you did some research on this because there are many "types" of riding, and again being war horses they had to have specialized training. What time period and area is your writing set?

    Also, I have almost accidently trampled many people and war horses were specifically trained to do so! I have been almost trampled plenty of times as well by just my horses running around like crack heads. I think what is harder for horses is running straight into battle against other people running straight at them, because that's terrifying.
     
  6. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I was actually worried about the commandeer act being impractical (I wrote a scene where it's integral), but your words make me feel much better.

    The time period is loosely based on late middle ages 14-15th century. For specificity let's say the horses in question are trained/bred for combat.

    Partially I'm worried about things I haven't considered at all, like how you and @Xoic mentioned different kinds of reigning. That would never have occurred to me.
     
  7. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Is a combat-trained horse going to have more attitude in general than non? Are they always stallions? Or can they be geldings and mares?
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    @Not the Territory would your riders and maybe horses be wearing armor? I only ask because I assume if they are that would whittle down the kinds of riding and accouterments to something pretty specific and could reduce the range of research necessary.
     
  9. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Yeah, primarily chain and bringandine for riders in question. The horses are largely unarmoured, and featured in small cat-mouse skirmishes.
     
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  10. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I've had horses for years and learned to ride long before I had my own horse. I've asked stallions to do things, told geldings to do things, and discussed the matter with mares. I've been knocked over, stepped on, charged, saved from an aggressive horse by a protective one, nuzzled, nibbled, kissed, and bitten. I have never ridden an armored horse into battle, but I do know people who fake that sort of thing. Get hold of The Society for Creative Anachronism and you will find folks who can answer your questions with authority.
     
  11. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Haha, no shortage of personality in them.

    Wow, those SCA are a colourful bunch. Thanks for the source.
     
  12. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    I think with the idea of commandeering a horse from an enemy, really depends entirely on the context. A horse, lets say owned by a French knight during the 100 years war, captured by the English, probably would have had similar training and could be absorbed into English use fairly easily. A crusader taking one from an Arab during the crusades, however, probably would have had a much harder time as Arabs trained their horses in much different manners than Europeans.

    Try https://www.extremejousting.com/ it is a pretty good group that try and make jousting as real as you can without getting killed. I've always found them pretty approachable with questions.
     
  13. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Well what I do know is Horse means 'big dog' . :p
    On the other hand, I did find this guide to them in the period you're looking in.
    https://www.allhorsebreeds.info/44/barouque-horse/
    Here is a price list of items they sold during that time, including horses. o_O
    http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html
    So more info about horses and types.
    http://www.equest4truth.com/equus-in-the-bible/94-discover-equus/159-horses-of-medieval-europe
    As for temperament well, it varies, but they should be about the same
    as their modern counterparts for the most part.
    https://www.pathintl.org/63-resources/resources-landing-page/1441-equine-tips-evaluating-horse-temperament-personality
    Hopefully you will find something useful in all that, and Happy Writing. :superidea:
     
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  14. JRTomlin

    JRTomlin New Member

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    Let me recommend this youtube channel. He covers medieval horses and riding in depth as well as a huge number of other areas relevant to authors. And he explodes a lot of myths from could you move around in armor to what peasants' food was really like. I really recommend the entire series.

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modern+history+tv+part+1
     
  15. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Don't forget that in the early to mid medieval era men tended to dismount during a battle, and fight on foot. Also, mules and oxen were more often used to haul sumpter wagons etc rather than horses. Horses were expensive luxuries mostly reserved for rich knights.
     
  16. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    There's some very neat blogs that deal with horses & historical horse riding. Quite a few of them have articles on writing horses. Just make sure to look at horse blogs that post about writing, not writing blogs that post about horses.

    As the local Napoleonic freak, I must comment on this.

    Horses trained for battle were much rarer than those that weren't - but all horses were extremely useful for warfare and mobility. That aside, medieval warfare was about horses so I disagree with your statement - perhaps in the British Isles, definitely not on the continent. There's hardly an early medieval formation more famous than Belisarius' Cataphract, who were heavy cavalry. Additionally, everyone and their wives (almost literally) fought on horseback to the east of the Elbe & Danube.

    There's also multiple horse breeds and huge variations in perfomance and needs. Heavy cavalry horses are larger and stronger, but require a lot of care and they can't live off grazing alone. Contrast these to horses bred by nomadic cultures that can live off the land, are enduring but also usually lighter.

    Excellently summarized by a Prussian cavalry officer:

    "The captured [French] horse was big but in poor condition, so I exchanged it with a Russian officer for a strong Cossack horse; now I owned 3 such Don mounts. They are excellent for use on campaigns where there are lots of hardships, but they do have some beauty defects."
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  17. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    @Lazaares I think @madhoca might have been speaking more about the 100 years war and earlier. I do know that it was common for English longbowmen and men at arms to purchase horses for mobility and then fight on foot once reaching the battlefield. There are actually still roll-call documents showing them coming up during campaign, first only having basic weapons but, as they made money, mostly from looting or captured prizes, they purchased horses or better weapons. I remember reading one where a man is listed as a man-at-arms and a year later is listed as a longbowman with a horse as he worked to improve is situation in the army.

    Also, something to bear in mind, is the fact that all "war horses" were not trained or used to run people over. The Scythians and later the Huns used breeds of horse that today we might classify as something more like a pony but were bred for stamina. As they were primarily horse archers they were not intended to run over humans or into other horses but I would still definitely classify them as a "war horse". The Scythian culture is still being explored but we know the Huns could direct their mounts without using reins, keeping their hands free to use their bows.
     
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  18. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    A friend's idea of a good time is to get on her horse, ride along a narrow track at a dead run while using both hands to aim and fire a black powder pistol at a six inch target. She says reins are for "effete easterners." My daughter trained her gelding so she could ride without either saddle or reins: voice, weight shifts, and knees only. She says saddles are for "effete black powder marksmen.":D
     
  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Calling people effete is a sign of effeteness. Tell 'em I said that. :supercool: :supergrin:
     
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  20. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Sure. Which one shall I tell first: the one who will shoot you or the one who will merely ride you down?
     
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  21. Historical Science

    Historical Science Contributor Contributor

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    One thing I do know about horses that gets ignored in many stories/movies is that they cannot gallop for very long, maybe a mile or two, even less if they're carrying a rider, packed saddlebags, etc. It's all about a steady trot for distance.
     
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  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I'm relying on my internet anonymity to protect me from their e-fists and e-feet. :cool:
     
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  23. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    E-ffete coward.
     
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  24. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Thank you for the help guys. That's a lot of good sources to look into.
     
  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Lol, better than a dead... um, whatever the opposite would be. :D

    If that's your daughter in your pic, she could crush me under one lat. :brb:
     
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