How can I create "suspension of disbelief"?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Ryan Elder, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. Actually I have already begun a new make over of the MC and the villain. It was pointed out on here, that I concentrate perhaps too much on plot and not enough on character when I write my threads. When I write a thread, I basically write about my ending or my scenario, and just write what happens. But the readers do not get a full picture of what the characters were like before that situation. Could that be why some may not understand the character, because I have given a plot concentrated description only, without giving much background on the character? Does the plot determine the character, and the character should be believable by the plot driving him into action, if that makes sense.
     
  2. Imaginarily

    Imaginarily Disparu en Mer Contributor

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    Yes. That's exactly why. You need to give your audience a person, not just a vehicle that the plot rides around in.
     
  3. Inks

    Inks Senior Member

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    Most readers get character archetypes - they have pre-set notions of certain aspects that have common personalities and beliefs. This is entirely separate from the actions they take, but the character's actions need to make logical sense. Knowing the difference between an unbelievable character and an unbelievable course of action is essential. Ask them the question - Is it the character or is it the act which is unbelievable, and why is it unbelievable? You will learn volumes by asking these questions.

    The reader does not control the actions of the character, but they should be able to understand the thought process and the actions taken. The more unusual the situation, the better you have to be at this. The "natural reaction" is often "What would I do?" for most of us, not exactly the best course of action. The more unusual the situation, the more deeply you have to go into a character to provide a legitimate reason when they do something unexpected.
     
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  4. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. Next time I ask a question on the development of my plot I could give a whole synopsis but I figure that the reader will only get sidetracked and will probably not want to read a whole synopsis as oppose to the particular scenario at hand, only.
     
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    This!

    I was gonna type a message but then I saw this. My message is just urging @Ryan Elder to not just read the words I have quoted but understand them. :)


    Though, I do disagree on one point. I think discussing with friend or fellow writers on what to write is fine. As long as it is a discussion and not a lecture/begging for help. Discussion can open many doors and I see no reason restrict discussion to just how to write a scene.
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    The plot doesn't determine the character, no. If you start with plot--which I don't--the plot may require a character that has certain characteristics, but you can't just say, "The plot wants this, the plot wants that, we'll glue them together, that's the character." The character has to make sense. If the plot doesn't support a character that makes sense, the character has to change.

    And in this case, your plot seems to need to be fundamentally based on a character, so starting with the plot doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To say, "I'm going to have a serial killer, and this and this and this are going to happen," before you even understand your killer, doesn't seem like a strategy that will work.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Your villain, for example--your idea seems to be, "People were mean and shunned him, so he kills and rapes people." That's not enough. And there also seems to be a very vague notion that he is also somehow making a profit from his crimes...? Or is that a completely different piece of fiction? There's no inherent profit in rape and murder. What exactly does he do, and why exactly does he do it? You refer to a cause, and to him having companions in this cause, but, again, where's the cause? How are the companions involved in this rape thing? How often are serial killers into a "cause" and group crimes--aren't they usually solitary criminals?

    Do you know the answers to these questions, in a substantial amount of detail?
     
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  8. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. It's just when I start out with the character determining the plot I keep arriving at anticlimatic endings, since the characters make decisions that are logical but not in the best interest of building towards a big suspenseful climax. Perhaps a very low key climax is okay, as long as the readers do not think of it as anticlimatic. But even when the characters make decisions based on their background, it still seems contradictory to the reader. When you say that the villain kills and rapes people because he was shunned, I wrote a lot more to it than that, and that's a very vague description of the villain. The way it is worded there does not sound enough, because it seems a lot is left out.

    This is probably my fault though, as when I ask questions as to what ending works, I do not go into full detail of the villain since I feel it would probably take too long and just lead to readers getting sidetracked.

    Plus the reason why I don't know my characters is since readers keep telling me to change the characters, I keep the characters very open to change, since I constantly told to change them on a case by case basis. What one character is like today, could be changed to something different tomorrow, if a reader tells me it's needed. So I guess I keep the characters open to change and will not decide on what a character is like until many readers are in confirmation that it works for the story.

    How have I alluded to that notion that the villain may be making a profit from his crimes, exactly?
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I may be remembering a different one of your plots--wasn't there some thing with a staged kidnapping and an internet video and ransom?

    But my main point is, do you know what your villain's crimes, and his associates, and his motives, and his habits, and his strategy, and his cause, and all those things, are? Or is it just a very general, "He's angry, he commits crimes."?
     
  10. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    This is your biggest problem.

    You keep treating it like a math problem you are trying to solve.

    And you keep letting the people you talk to take creative control away from you. Showing people and a willingness to change is good but only to a fault. Defend your ideas!

    See, if you defend your ideas to the best of your power and you still feel defeated, then maybe they were on to something. But if you never defend them, then how do you know they were bad?

    I have talked to you for a while. So as a friend. let me tell you this. I don't think your going to find the answers you need in another forum thread asking more or less the same question. You need to dig deeper. I wish you luck :)
     
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  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Have you been giving your readers finished stories to read, or just a few chapters?

    I would not pay a lot of attention to what they say if you've only given them a few chapters. They don't know how your story will turn out, so they can't really judge what makes sense and what doesn't ...yet. But keep in mind there will always be somebody who won't like your writing. Turning yourself inside out trying to please everybody won't work. All authors, even those who sell millions of books, have some people who don't like what they write. There is no such thing as a universally-loved writer.

    If careful readers (who have read your whole story) tell you a character's actions don't make sense, then you need to make it clearer WHY your character is acting the way he is. That's just a writing issue, involving how you've portrayed your character—and the forum can help you achieve that. It doesn't change your basic story.

    But what if you agree with the feedback, and feel uh-oh, they're right—that doesn't actually make sense? Then you'll need to think it out more thoroughly and do a bit of tweaking. You still want that character to do what he did, so find a reason that can happen plausibly and work it in. However, to do this, you need to know your characters as well as you know yourself. You need to know exactly why they will do what they do. If you don't, if you're just making your characters scamper through some elaborate plot you've constructed, you are bound to create a few who are not believable.

    Asking people for constant brainstorming and/or approval on what should happen in your story or how your character should act is not going to make you a better writer. It makes you a person who learns to put words to other people's ideas. You need to take the plunge, think hard, feel your character's feelings, think the way he thinks and make these decisions yourself.

    If you've got the urge to write and to be creative—which you obviously do—you'll find it easy to solve your own story problems once you get going. Just let go of the brainstorming handrail and strike out on your own. The rewards for original problem-solving will be ample indeed. We'll be glad to help with the polishing stage, and give feedback on whether we 'get' your story, but the creative stage is yours and yours alone. If a character's actions aren't believable, or you've left gaps that make no sense, then you need to find a way to fill those gaps and make the characters believable. On your own. By yourself. That's all part of the craft of writing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
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  12. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Oh okay. I thought that by defending my ideas, I would come off as not being able to take criticism and not being able to ascertain the problems, if I wasn't willing to take other people's changes.

    Yes it was the same plot. The ransom was just a ruse and the villain was going to kill the hostage anyway and show the public in a video, to get their attention. I know my villains motives and reasons as well as his associates. However, the one thing I need for them perhaps is an end goal. Once they realize that their acts of terror on people are not working they need to have a end goal, where they will commit one final crime and if that doesn't work, they give up. I mean the villains do not want to keep doing it for the rest of their lives probably, so when the villains are trying to send a message that they will not stand for being treated as inferior by society, what is the end game for those villains, when nothing is working? If I can figure that out, then I can perhaps come up with a better ending. Or they keep kidnapping, and killing for the rest of their lives.
     
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  13. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I think (though let him correct me if I am wrong) he has only written this in summary form as he wants it to be a movie and not a book. So, it has never been fully written up as one would write a book.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    In all these discussions, I still don't understand his reasons for his actions, at all. That strikes me as a problem. Do you really understand them? Not, "he's angry, so he hurts people," but specifically and in detail?
     
  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, you need to carve out an end goal for your characters. Absolutely. Play around with what this goal can be. Do a lot of what-ifs. What if he wanted this, or that? What if he didn't want something obvious at all. Does he let other people know what his goal is? Does he keep it to himself? Why? Always keep asking yourself why, and you'll get there. But get in the habit of doing this on your own, and not involving others in the process. Get it written to a point where it satisfies you, and THEN let other people in.

    You know what? It's like anything else in life. Knowing you can solve your own problems without help is the most confidence-building exercise there is. NOTHING else will build confidence like that. And writing is a good place to learn this trick, because there is NO RISK in making a mistake. You're not going to crash a plane or a car or fail an exam. You are in total control of this process at all times, so don't turn the control over to others.
     
  16. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I wrote the first half in great detail, but have not decided on a last half because I am still not sure what I want my ending to be.

    Well since the villain is involuntarily celebant, it causes him to feel rejected by the world and therefore wants to create acts of terror to make a point to society. I truly understand the villain and his problem since I created him and came up with the character.

    Okay thanks. Well since the villain is killing out of being rejected by people, and most particularly women, I am not sure what an end goal for that is. He wants to create terror and society and leaves videos and messages of his killings to make that point. But if society is not changing based on his terror, then he can either keep doing it for the rest of his life, or he can come up with a plan to to take much more drastic measures if society is not changing. I guess I am not sure what that plan would be. I mean if kill to make that point to society what is the final end game to win in that particular goal really? It seems that there is no way of winning that goal that would work, unless he just keeps on doing it maybe?
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    To make WHAT point to society?

    Is his premise, "All men have an unconditional right to sex, and all women should dedicate themselves to ensuring that they get all they want."?

    Or is it, "All men who are similar to me in ways x, y, and z have an unconditional right to sex, and all the rest of society should dedicate itself to...." Etc?

    Or is it, "I am a living god, and I am entitled...." Etc.?

    Does he take female equality as an offense against him personally, because women with freedom of action might not give him the absolute obedience that he thinks is his natural right?

    What is his position and his "cause"? Enslaving women? Enslaving society as a whole?
     
  18. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well his goal is more like "Just because I was born with inferior features, does not mean I don't deserve what other people can have. I will not be a seen as a retard in society and will have rebel for being treated like one and being rejected and lonely. If I have to use rape and murder to get people to listen than I will!"

    It's less about female obedience and more about being accept by the opposite sex in general.
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't see a difference--he demands that women obey his demand for their sexual attention, right? He takes their right to choose a partner as an offense against him?

    So does he act against women's colleges, because educated women may not regard themselves as property?

    Divorce attorneys, because they (as he might see it) break men's ownership over women?

    The marriage industry, because they (as he might see it) empower a woman to refuse the advances of all but one man?

    The police, because they might protect women and behave as if they are citizens?

    Does he see women rather as a medieval villager might see the commons--a resource freely available to all--and does he see marriage or education or women being citizens as being like the commons being fenced off?

    Are women essentially cattle that should be communally owned and used? Is that his cause?
     
  20. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    No he does not think of women as cattle, he is just tired of being treated as handicapped or socially inferior by them, constantly rejected.
     
  21. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Can't help it. Trivia one of the villains is a girl! Lol.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But what is his cause? To prevent women from being permitted to make a choice? Or to persuade them to make a different choice? In his mind, how do his actions make progress toward that cause?
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    That's another part that makes no sense to me. Not that a serial killer is likely to make sense to a sane person, but there needs to be some sort of internal logic.
     
  24. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    To persuade them to make a different choice or to take into consideration how they are being 'shallow', or least shallow according to what he thinks.
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    How? How do his actions do that? That is, how does HE believe they will do that?

    If I say, "My villain thinks that ice cream is the creation of the devil, so he has people who support his cause by painting graffiti images of Bugs Bunny in subway tunnels," I think that you'd say, "What? What does that have to do with ice cream or the devil?" There would be no internal logic.

    If I then made it clear that my villain thinks that Bugs is an avatar of God, and that the wind from the subway trains rushing by would bring the Bugs images to life, to march against ice cream vendors, then there would be internal logic.

    I don't see any internal logic in your villain's actions.

    (Edited to change 'consistency' to 'logic'.)
     
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