How can I get readers to not become fixated on minor characters?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Ryan Elder, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Your circular logic reminds me of my father-in-law. :dead:
     
  2. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well people told me to do research and ask attorneys and police these questions. So now I am not suppose to take their input, and it's useless to what readers will accept now?
     
  3. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I know i said i wasnt going to reply again but just to briefly respond to this

    He can't , the whole plot is stupid , because a patrol officer wouldn't be investigating crimes and a detective wouldn't be on patrol. Also its not clear if this happens before or after the MC is raped by the villain or if you've kicked that unbelievable detail following previous advice.

    Criminals pat down /electronically check for wires before meetings all the time - that's not in doubt , but they don't do it where they can be easily observed. They'd be much more likely to go to the abandoned warehouse here the blood in is happening then require the new recruit to take off his shirt etc , because at that point they've got a lot more control over the situation

    Being charitable and assuming you aren't lying about talking to real cops I'd say that either you are misinterpreting what they tell you , or you are talking to small town cops in podunk who have no real idea about a big city force or urban crime

    the reason you are told its wrong is because their supposed examples are not credible for stuff a cop would really tell you ergo either they didnt, or you got it wrong, or the source wasn't reliable.

    Also how much other research have you done apart from talking to these cops , how many cops have you talked to , how many police journals, non fiction books, comparable novels etc have your read ? How many police forums have you joined ? and so on

    By way of illustration , my WIP is about special forces soldiers (all beit in the future)

    Research wise

    1) although I was not special forces, I am ex military and have first hand experience of the weapons etc i'm writing about and how soldiers talk/act
    2) Many of my friends are still serving soldiers and have far greater knowledge enabling me to fact check
    3) Via these friends I have made various other contacts including some with SF experience
    4) I've also read upwards of 30 non fiction books about SF actions from Vietnam through to modern day
    5) from these books i have also found other contacts (my unit is heavilly based on the recon soldiers in Vietnam and ive been lucky enough to make a contact who served in those units in Vietnam )
    6) Through my experience in Krav Maga I also have contacts with whom I can fact check and choreograph fight sequences
    7) this also includes research through other sources like nononsenseselfdefense.com , and reading specific books like "how to fight dirty and win"
    8) In addition to the above I have read probably in excess of 100 comparable fiction books and made notes on what their sources are, and ideas they give me.
    9) on top of all of the above I have the power of google to check out other specific facts, and a full set of maps for the ground on which my unit is fighting over annotated with changes I'd envisage having occurred
    10) and lastly via this site I've found an alpha reader who is giving me chapter by chapter crit (and being female also offering insight into how the female MC might think)

    Although I'm not in anyway saying that I am special, that is the sort of thing i mean when i say do some research - not watch a couple of films and start a bunch of threads asking others to do research for you

    For example awhile back I recommended that you read "Homicide" by David Simon about the Baltimore Homicide unit, and Cop World by James Mclure about the Seattle police dept ... had you done so many of the questions you have asked since about admissibility of evidence and police procedure would already have been answered by your research.

    also as has already been noted you need to own your own writing and stop trying to do it by committee - plus you need to stop saying "xyz isnt possible because the story doesn't allow it, when everything is possible because you have the ability to change the story

    and with that I really am done
     
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  4. Nicola

    Nicola Member

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    It's really good that you've gone that far to get answers, impressive research.

    If that is the law then you could go ahead and keep that part but you could have one someone explain that is IS the law in your story, maybe a police officer or lawyer?
     
  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    This is a classic case of what i was talking about above

    Your lawyer contacts are right that it is possible to indict a case based only on the testimony of police officers, if the victim of a crime is unwilling to testify, however the key (as i'm sure the lawyers would have said - assuming they exist ) is that the police officers in question have seen a crime being committed.

    However in this case you've got no crime being committed, and if there's no crime, then there's no investigation, no case and everyone has something better to do with their time and resources
     
  6. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I have joined a couple of police forums. Since I am into writing screenplays, I watch a lot of crime movies. I also asked the two lawyers I met about it, and they said that a case can be taken to court without the victim's testimony, and that it's called 'evidence-based prosecution'. They also gave me examples of real cases where it has happened. So it's happened in real life.

    Also when I watch a lot of crime movies, you see criminals do things that the MC can witness in public all the time. For example in Die Hard 2, McClane is at the airport, at a table waiting and relaxing, and he sees two men sitting at a table, and one passes an attache case to the other, under the table.

    He thinks of this as suspicious and follows them. So I feel that in fiction, criminals make mistakes in front of other people. As for the detective on patrol, I can change the MC to a patrol officer. That's fine. But I do watch a lot of crime fiction left and right. People will accept made up legalities in scripts and movies though. For example, in The French Connection, a cop commandeers a civilian's car, to chase down some perps. Police officers cannot do that.

    Yet readers and audiences accept that, but they have a problem with a prosecutor using the 'evidence-based prosecution'. And in my script, yes the cops would have to sees the crime. During the blood in, they would have to see the gun pressed up against the blood in targets head, as the new recruit is struggling to shoot her, or something along those lines. So he sees it, stops it, calls it in, and then other officers arrive and see that the MC has freed her from her ropes tied around her legs and her hand cuffs that were on her, that made wrist marks... as well as the gag and blindfold that she was forced to wear.

    I was told by the lawyers that that would be enough to make it to a probable cause hearing to see what a judge has to say about going further.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Again, I think that there is no assurance whatsoever that you really know what the lawyers told you.
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Ryan, in my post:

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/how-can-i-get-readers-to-not-become-fixated-on-minor-characters.148283/page-2#post-1488629

    was Fred told, or was Fred not told, that chocolate cake is healthy? Can you explain your answer, one way or another?
     
  9. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Perhaps I am misunderstanding what the lawyers are saying. Here is the director quote, word for word, one of them sent me in an email.

    "Some statements may come into evidence under hearsay exceptions. But even if we assume that the victim was mute from the moment the police arrived onward, it's possible to convict somebody of a crime without a statement from the victim -- that's par for the course in homicide cases.

    The prosecutor is not going to give the defendant the slightest hint that the victim has decided not to cooperate. If the prosecutor finds out that the defendant has contacted the victim, the prosecutor is apt to infer that the victim's decision not to cooperate results from intimidation.

    It's not clear why your victim would lie about what happened, if compelled to testify."

    I thought he meant that the victim is not needed to indict, but what did I not understand?
     
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    You need to stop thinking about films as a credible source of information - "they did it in die hard2" does not meet any reasonable test as proof.

    Also as i said above yes evidence based prosecution on the testimony of police officers is entirely possible

    assuming that

    a) those officers witnessed a crime being committed , and
    b) they had a legal right to be where they were at the time (if they didn't it comes under fruit of the poison tree as previously discussed)

    So for example if a cop arrives and sees stinky beating peewee with a baseball bat, they can prosecute stinky even without peeewee's testimony

    However in your example a) no crime has been committed, and b) your MC was trespassing when he witnessed the non crime occurring

    A crime is necessary for charges to be brought, let alone for indictment , and evidence is necessary for an evidenced based prosecution, this would have been binned by the police/DA and would never get anywhere near court... which you would know if you'd ready any of the books I and others recommended you
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I think we are wasting our time
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I know. I guess I'm curious as to whether Ryan is (1) actively and deliberately trolling, (2) choosing to ignore everything that doesn't fit his preconceptions but holds to the hope that somebody someday will agree with him, (3) is really incapable of taking in information that isn't what he wants to hear, or (4) if there are comprehension issues that would benefit from professional intervention.

    It doesn't matter. I guess I keep wondering.

    Well, and I'm primed from birth to keep on trying to make the determined-to-misunderstand understand. One of my mother's more toxic interaction tactics was a wilful refusal to ever, ever understand. I mean, she could understand "please pass the salt", but refused to understand even something as barely abstract as, "If you want to sleep eight hours, you go to bed eight hours before the time you need to get up." In fact, I once spent about fifteen minutes trying to get to the core of her refusal to understand, "Could you pass me that bottle?"

    It wasn't a cognitive disorder or at least not entirely; Mom could understand when speaking to people outside the family, and she graduated from an Ivy League college. She just amused herself by refusing to understand the people she shared a household with.

    Huh. Basically, I was raised by a troll?

    Anyway, spending my entire pre-adult life, and countless hours of phone calls after reaching adulthood, in that situation, gave me a bad habit of persisting whenever I run into a lack of understanding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
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  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Wrong again - Posse Comitatus potentially gives police officers the power to comandeer vehicles (they hardly ever do , but that doesn't mean they can't), according to snopes

    "Dennis Zine, director of the Los Angeles Police Protective League and a former street cop, said he has exercised posse comitatus three times to take control of vehicles in his 26 years with the LAPD.

    Once he commandeered a private delivery truck. Another time he took over a city trash truck. And once he borrowed a bicycle to chase a fleeing forgery suspect. "The only bad thing about the bike," Zine recalls, "was that it didn't have any brakes
    ."

    On the wider point , people will accept made up legalities so long as they are logical and coherent, they won't accept a load of frantic handwaving trying to cover up a yawning chasm of credibility caused by lack of research (or more accurately they won't get the chance as no one in their right mind will publish that anyway)
     
  14. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    As for commandeering vehicles, the cops I asked said they are not allowed to do that. So I was going by them.

    Basically the cops told me two things about this.

    1. The cop hears screaming from the woman hostage, and sees a crack in the cabin wood, leading to a the basement. He peaks into the small crack with his eye, and gets a glimpse of her tied up, gagged and blindfolded,
    and panicking as the new blood in recruit has to shoot her and is struggling. He peaks into the crack which is next to the front door of the cabin, and I was told by police, that cops are allowed to approach a front door, and that does not count as tresspassing, if they hear a scream, and look into a crack after.

    2. The cabin is owned by the victim being held hostage, so if there is any tresspassing, it would be on her property. I was told by police that fruit of the poisonous tree only counts, if the property is owned by the defendant. In this case it's not and it's the victim's.
     
  15. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    @Ryan Elder

    With the amount of time you spend on here defending absurd notions and quoting "sources", you could have written six novels and baked fifteen chocolate-kale cakes.
     
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  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Fred: "OK, I've been told that chocolate cake is unhealthy. So I decided that the cook is a psychopath who wants to kill one of the spa members by giving them a heart attack from too many animal fats."

    Gloria: "...what? Why are you...what?"

    Fred: "Because I need a chocolate cake. But someone asked why the health spa would hire a psychopathic cook. So I decided that the cook bribed the therapist that cleared him for the job. Of course, he needs to cover the evidence, so he murdered the therapist and buried them in a community garden. So my question is, would tomatoes grow differently if they were fertilized by a decaying human body?"

    Gloria "..."

    Fred: "What do you think?"

    Gloria: "I think that someone would notice a freshly dug grave in the community garden."

    ---

    Fred: "How do I keep readers from getting fixated on minor garden details?"

    George: "Huh?"
     
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  17. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Do you think that the police and lawyers are feeding me false information then?
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Ryan when I say, "I think that you are not understanding what people are telling you," what do you think that I could possibly, possibly mean by that?
     
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You guys are killing me. :rofl:
     
  20. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay I am not understanding it. But I feel that maybe I could use some explanations then if that is okay. For example, when the police tell me that it doesn't count as fruit of the poison tree, when the victim is the owner of the property, and the cop went out to the front door, which he is allowed to do, before hearing a scream, and looking into the crack, what part did I understand incorrectly?

    What did the officers actually mean when they told me this then?
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Again, what could I possibly mean when I say that you are not understanding what people are telling you?
     
  22. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay then. But is it too much to ask to have it explained to me correctly, then if I am not understanding what they said correctly?
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What could I possibly mean? I apparently need some evidence that you have understood something. Can you tell me what I mean?
     
  24. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I mean, could you please tell me what the police and lawyers meant then, since I understood it wrong. All I was told is that they are wrong, but with very limited specifics as to what the real legal technicalities are therefore.
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not asking what you mean. I'm asking you what you think I mean. The double lack of understanding or refusal to understand is interesting, though. You not only refuse to tell me what I might mean, you refuse to understand that I am asking you to tell me what I might mean.

    Let's try an alternative. In the post:

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/how-can-i-get-readers-to-not-become-fixated-on-minor-characters.148283/page-2#post-1488629

    HAS Fred been told that chocolate cake is healthy?
     

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