Thats the one, and in the book at least the mans wife isnt just there shes participating - she lies on her back missionary style and the "handmaid" lies on her back between the wife's legs with her face covered in voile while the husband has sex with her, so that it sort of quasi appears that hes having sex with his infertile wife , and the handmaid is stripped both of her right to say no and of her identity and its not just a one off perversion of one couple - this is how society works so its not technically rape because a handmaid culturally has no right to refuse .. she's basically a slave. The whole thing is pretty uncomfortable - i read it once then gave the book away as its not something i'd want to read about for pleasure
That's right, I think the man and his wife were sort of high up in their community. It was a looong time ago, nothing I want to ever revisit! But it does go some way into what constitutes rape. For me, anything where penetration is achieved where one party (male or female) has said "no" or is incapable of saying a word, is rape and the person who continues it should be prosecuted.
It wasn't a job; she was a prisoner. She had no choice whatsoever. It absolutely was rape. FWIW, you weren't supposed to get pleasure from that; it was a dystopian nightmare about what might happen if women were systematically stripped of their rights.
I agree - It's over 20 years since I saw the film, I had to go look it up. I think we used it as part of a discussion as to what constitutes rape, and although that scenario is rape, it's totally different to the kind of rape that the OP is talking about. We were also discussing the rare occurrences of rape in fiction work and perhaps, how and when not to do it. @big soft moose and I both came to the conclusion that it's something neither of us would do from a writer's point of view. (or an any point of view). And I think most, if not all, people will say that if they read fiction, they read for pleasure, as a pastime. So no, that is not the kind of book some would keep on the shelf and go back to read every few years. (Like I do with Sue Townsend books).
Okay thanks. Well this would be a lot more than killing my darlings as in I would have to invent new darlings and a new character. For example, if this character is not going to rape the main character, as well as other victims, than what is she doing to drive the story? I already have the whole plot outlined, so now I have to come up with a new crime for her without changing the rest of the plot. So what crime could she commit against the MC, as well as other characters, and why would she be doing it? Basically in the plot she is stalking the MC and trying to find a way to get him, but if it's not for seduction, which would fail, and then lead to rape, then why would she be stalking him out? I am just not sure what to replace the crime with. Even if I do kill my darlings, I now do not know why she is following him around, trying to seduce him for a good portion of the plot now, as well as other victims. If it's not going to fail, and lead her to rape, then what is going to be her crime? In all of these situations I have said yes, and I would consider it rape with myself put into those situations as well. But did I answer the questions wrong at all? As for how I wrote the rape scene of the main character, I wrote it so that he is drugged and tied up, constantly struggling, and shouting out 'no'. I don't have to have a rape scene of the MC in my story. However, the part where the woman seduces him and fails, then takes him captive, is all played out in real time, since I wanted to show the process her how she fails, and the process, of how he is going to surprised for what is in store for him. I could skip over it, but then the reader might find it kind of jarring, thinking that maybe they cannot get behind a revenge drive for the MC, if his victimization act was skipped over, and it might be a bit jarring therefore? Not sure. But if I were to take out the rape entirely, and take on a new crime, I am not sure what that crime would be. She is stalking him for a good portion of the story already, so I am not sure how to kill that darling, and put in a new one without it feeling forced. I am not saying it won't help the story, it's just it comes off as a forced change, especially since she keeps making all these efforts, to attract him before snapping. I would say Law and Order: SVU is a somewhat comparable example to mine, with the main difference being that the victim takes the law into his own hands, when the system fails him, where as in SVU, the police go by the book most often and prevail.
Dude, @Ryan Elder, you say you need new plot points because of what people have said. When in reality, you've hamstrung yourself with this writing by committee thing that you seem so hell-bent on. How about instead of asking every possible question you have about your writing, plot, characters, motivations, etc. you just write the story by yourself and see what happens? If you want to stick with the rape, stick with the rape. If you don't want to stick with it, don't. But for the love of earth's green grass, will you stop trying to get people on this forum to write your story for you?
Handmaid's Tale? Classic of Canadian literature - it gets taught in a lot of high school classes, lots of university courses, etc. The rape is presented as a horrible thing, and the depiction isn't overly graphic. I don't think anyone's reading it for titilation, but in terms of horrible things that happen to people, I think it's no worse than torture, murder, serial killers, wars, etc. that are frequently depicted in fiction. I'm not sure I agree that depiction of rape is an automatic issue for most publishers--and I'm not familiar with the Amazon rules against it, either. In general, the Amazon rules about what's acceptable are frustratingly vague, so I'd be surprised if there was a clear ban on depictions of rape. As pointed out, Handmaid's Tale contains rape and it's certainly available on Amazon. So are lots of other books: Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, the Game of Thrones series, Kite Runner, etc. etc. Lots of fictional rape out there. That said, I agree with the concerns being raised about this particular depiction. I just don't think the case should be overstated in general.
I also tried researching real life women serial rapists, but have not been able to find much. I only found one from the 90s so far, and the articles just talk about the crimes, but do not go into her psychological detail of why she did it exactly. I will keep researching.
Ryan, I think that you should sit down and figure out why you are apparently utterly, totally, completely unable to even conceive of the idea of fiction that isn't centered on rape. I really do. Because you are not equipped to write this story. No matter what you do, it turns out to treat rape as a sort of inevitable, expected result of people not getting sex when they want it. It's Robin Hood and the Merry Rapists, fighting a righteous cause against people who think that they have the right to choose who they will have sex with. If you write this and publish this, I think that the day will come when you do have a deeper understanding of the subject, and you wish with all your heart and soul that you had not published it and had not tied your name to it. Most people have thoughts and ideas in their youth that, reflected on decades later, cause their faces to go hot with embarrassment. But those thoughts were usually private or, at worst, expressed to friends who have also moved on and matured. Don't publish yours. Just don't.
And I know, I know! I was done! Maybe my above post was what I needed to say--that if Ryan posts this, his older self will so very intensely regret having done so. Maybe I want to protect his older self from what his younger self is threatening to do. Or maybe I just can't shut up.
Here in the UK, the book was never used in education at all. (But then, I never got the chance to go to uni so I don't know if it was on their required reading list). The Amazon t&c's, I came across those when I sp'd a couple of years ago.
I double-checked, and Amazon's criteria are still annoyingly vague... Offensive Content: What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect. - https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A3KIRDTX1UQJX0
Okay thanks for the advice. When it comes to writing fiction, how do I make the villains not so Robin Hood like to the reader though? I mean even if took out rape and switched it to murder, the reader could interpret it as Robin Hood and the Merry Murderers. If the reader is assuming glorification of one crime, what's not to stop it from assuming glorification of another, if it's swapped?
There isn't a tradition of blaming murder victims for the crime, denying that murder occurred, celebrating murder in social rituals, etc. So rape is a bit more sensitive than a lot of other crimes.
That's true. But don't villains blame innocent people for all their wrongs though and lie about not having done anything wrong to the authorities? I thought it was what villains do, and I was hoping the reader will see it that way. The reader is not suppose to agree with the villains.
If you create a murderer who steals people's diamonds, you probably wouldn't say that he became a murderer "because" through his whole life people had refused to freely give him their diamonds. You probably wouldn't have a "theme" of "involuntary diamondlessness" as a big societal problem that had produced a whole gang of diamond-deprived people who had become murdering psychopaths from the stress of diamondlessness. (Look at me, not being done. Sigh.)
Well I don't mean to justify the act of rape to solve a social problem. Even though the villains suffer from a social problem, I did not want the reader to think that the villains actions are a justifiable resolution. It's suppose to be the opposite and their methods do not help the problem, but make it worse for themselves.
Um, yeah, sure, that's what cartoon villains do, in shows like like Rocky and Bullwinkle, or Pokémon. In that case, yes villains blame innocent people. But in real life, and good fiction, the antagonist is much more nuanced than "blaming innocent people for all their wrongs and lying to authorities."
No it's not a social problem. But it is in the villains' own head, cause they are delusional. At least that is what I intended. Well I will keep researching motives for rape then and see what I can find.
They're a whole group advocating the fine society-improving joys of... Oh, never mind. If you can't see the wild, massive, utter, total implausibility of the whole thing after all this, you never, ever will. I'm really hoping that you've been trolling us all for more than a year. That would give me more faith in humanity than the idea that you're serious.
Well I would say that they are much more bitter about it, rather than having joys. Joys are the last thing I would use to describe them. I looked up motives for rape and there is anger, power, and sadism I read. That is more like what they are. But I want to ask some people with backgrounds in their psychology for their opinions. One article I came across said that sexual entitlement is one of the motivating causes of rape. Is that not true though, and perhaps the article is wrong therefore? I found an article from wikipedia that says this: "Sexual violence committed by men is to a large extent rooted in ideologies of male sexual entitlement. These belief systems grant women extremely few legitimate options to refuse sexual advances.[49][57][58] Some men thus simply exclude the possibility that their sexual advances towards a woman might be rejected or that a woman has the right to make an autonomous decision about participating in sex. In some cultures women, as well as men, regard marriage as entailing the obligation on women to be sexually available virtually without limit" Would it help if I made my villains more like this? I could take out the rape entirely, and put a new crime in but if I did that I feel the story might not make any more sense. Why is this woman stalking this character around for so long, trying to get his attention? She could still be out to seduce him and then fail, but then what is she going to do about it? I can think more and try to come up with something different and try to keep an open mind, on what she can do to him instead of rape him, in order to set him off against her.
There are plenty of reasons why the woman could be stalking your character for so long. I'm not going to write your story for you, but off the top of my head I can think of about seven motivations that might set her off against him. It's not hard. Just, please, forget about the rape.
