1. Teladan

    Teladan Contributor Contributor

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    How Did the Greats Outline?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Teladan, Sep 4, 2018.

    Something I've always wondered is how classic authors planned their stories, especially those in the 19th Century. I feel as though outlining in terms of "plots" and "characters" is an exceedingly modern invention. I can't imagine Dostoevsky or someone of that calibre writing a little heading called "plot". Another example, I doubt he or anyone else of that period considered what an "act" was. Or am I wrong? In my mind classic works of literature just appeared, have always existed, but they are obviously the products of immense amounts of consideration and calculation. Do we have physical evidence other than a few hand written notes about how the old authors planned?
     
  2. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    I believe that old writers worked very hard to come out with their great works. We don't know the duration of finishing each work of their literary works , but they put all their experience in them, otherwise they wouldn't have reached or gained international success and fame .
    I see that they relied on narrating true incidents or at least similar incidents that really happened either in their lives or in order to enlighten the public to good deeds by illustrating good and evil in a material way, to convey their points of view. However living art is in progression or renewal.
    Thanks for the topic.
     
  3. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    Dickens had extensive notes with ideas, endings, chapter names, kept track of character names and ages, even questions like shall I do this, or shall that happen now or later. "Plot" and "characters" and all the other stuff is not that modern. Teaching writing is modern. Having neat stacks of post-it notes is modern. Jotting down notes for yourself is not modern.
     
  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    As someone who has read a lot of classics literature and works from the literary cannon, I have to say I completely disagree with you. Fiction has never been about an author putting " all their experiences" into a work of fiction. And fiction has always meant fiction. True events that actually happened are nonfiction. These terms haven't changed. And the role of fiction has never been "to enlighten the public to do good deeds." I've read a lot and widely. These things you're saying are simply not true or have never been the case on any widespread scale for you to be making such blanket statements.

    As far as outlining, I think it's always been a personal decision and about an author figuring out what works best for them. I mean you can hand write an outline just like you can type one. If these authors wanted to work off an outline, I'm sure they found a way to do so. But don't be fooled. There are plenty of complex and compelling stories that have been created without an outline or preplanning. That has always been true as well.
     
  5. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    Maybe there is a bit of misunderstanding regarding the point of fiction and nonfiction.
    Yes, fiction stories rely on the writers fancy and imagination rather than mentioning true events, but don't you think that there should be a plot that stands for good and condemns evil, even in fiction? I believe that it should contain this factor otherwise the writer writes without a goal. But, every writer has the right to convey his writing skill however he likes, but when it comes to TRUE ISSUES, THEN HE SHOULD WRITE SOMETHING THAT TOTALLY CONDEMNS EVIL.
    It applies to nonfiction also, for the story should at least carry a theme, Sir.
    Thanks for your idea.
     
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  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It's not all about good and evil. in fact I don't even think of such things when I'm writing. I'm telling a story, not preaching my beliefs. And there's nothing writers "SHOULD" do as you suggest. Read more. This isn't the theme most writers are aiming for or such a thing that is relevant in many stories.
     
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  7. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    One reason it is hard to quantify is that some people are able to outline in their head. It's possible to have the ending and the middle in your head, and the main interactions between the characters, and all kinds of other things planned out without writing anything down.

    "And I've seen him at work, when that light goes on in his mind
    It's like a design is written in his head, every time
    Before he even touches a key or speaks in a rhyme" - Fort Minor

    Edit: Some people are so perfect they can outline in their heads and then only write finished work ;)

     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  8. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Some people also just can't grasp the concept that outlining isn't part of everyones process. My stories and plots are full of complexities that maybe would require an outline for some writers, but that's just not how I work. Everything is made up on the fly and I am constantly asking myself what is the least likely thing to happen next. But I don't actually stop to ask myself that question or answer it even in my mind. It's just part of my natural writing process where all I do is pretty much write and see what I can come up with. And if that's the way I work, I have no problem believing that's the way plenty of others before me have worked as well. If baffles me that people actually take the time to plan and outline just as much as I'm sure if baffles other how some writers really don't at all.
     
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  9. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I think I outline, but I started reading this book and I'm just shocked at how little outlining I really do compared to what some people prescribe.
     
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  10. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    I didn't at all mention anything about beliefs Sir. Should I wanted that, then I would have mentioned it easily.
    It has nothing to do with that. One is not obliged to write his beliefs. You are free to convey your ideas.
     
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  11. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    The existence of the good and evil binary is a belief that not everyone shares.
     
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  12. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    As I mentioned above, eveyone has absolute freedom to convey his thoughts, provided he is loyal to his message.
     
  13. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I guess it would be pretty hard to sell a book about writing if the main piece of advice was just write. If people see steps and a process broken down to a level where just about anyone can do it, it becomes something that just about anyone might think they can do it. I'm not saying that's the case with you or anyone who outlines, but in the end no one cares about an outline. Well, maybe they do if you plan to write books about writing. But I could care less about the steps and planning a writer takes. It's all about the finished product. I've always viewed outlining as a form of procrastination. There is a recent post on here where the member hasn't written any of her book in two years because she needs to get everything planned out, which also hasn't happened, but that's the topic in a different thread. All I'm saying is that whatever prewriting, outline or planning it takes isn't going to matter in the end. And I wouldn't be surprised so much if the idea of outlining and planning is a result of how many how-to-write books an aspiring author reads. Whatever works as long as it actually works.
     
  14. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    You were speaking from a place that made it sound as if you through good and evil were real and that writers should act as if they are. Deadrats is replying to you as if it is obvious (to me it is obvious) that the existence of good and evil is something people "believe in" rather than something people "know about."
     
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  15. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    For a novel, I give myself one month to outline, and a year to finish. Oddly, it took me about 13 months to finish and polish the novel I have now. For short stories, I give myself an hour or two to brainstorm an outline.

    Once you accept that the outline is a moving target and it won't survive the writing process, you become way less attached to it, and use it as something to help you point where you are going. I never get bogged down in outlines.
     
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  16. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    What you understood from me pertaining good and evil is right. Yes I believe in the existaence of good deeds and bad deeds, and this is a matter of belief, never imposed on any living being. There is good behavior and bad behavior no matter how it varies from one society to another Sir.To me, It's not a matter of preaching religion. That's something else.
     
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  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But "totally condemns evil" is likely to preach and thus not communicate.

    And there are countless goals other than "condemn evil". The writer may want to explore a specific type of person, or aspect of humanity. The writer may want to entertain.

    Or if it is about evil, the writer may want to explore why evil people are evil, and you can't really do that if you stand well back, point your finger, and shout "Evil!" You have to have some temporary empathy, to get inside the evil for a while. And that understanding could, in the end, help to really reduce some evil somewhere.
     
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  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    There aren't such conditions to writing fiction. It's not about conveying my belief or being loyal to a message. Most of the time it's just about telling a good story.
     
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  19. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Anything I've ever tried to outline I've never finished. Planning things out seems to trip me up. And I've been doing this long enough to know that's a step I can skip. But whatever works works. Seems like you also found a routine that suits you best. :)
     
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  20. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I should mention that while I'm in the outlining month, I'm also trying to figure out things like what buildings are inside a castle wall and how are horses kept at night when traveling on an empty road.

    I spent all this time last year learning about training oxen and then I wrote the book and they never even rode in an oxcart. Whatever. That's why I only give myself a month. That's plenty enough time to generate bad ideas and red herrings.
     
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  21. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    There is a difference when setting one's story aiming to impose and prove it either right or wrong. Am against that. But, when it comes; to writing a story of good and evil, then it should be shown, never preached, that's what I believe in.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It sounded before like you were arguing that all fiction should be stories of good and evil. Is that not what you're saying?
     
  23. Youssef Salameh

    Youssef Salameh Senior Member

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    If someone is not true and sincere while doing his job then what's the goal. Please, don't generalize my idea.
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not generalizing your idea. I don't understand your idea.
     
  25. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Um... fiction is the opposite of truth. And we never know how sincere a writer is. Look at Gertrude Stein's Tender Buttons. Was she sincere while writing that? I've seen arguments both ways. And truth sure had nothing to do with it. That was poetry, but I think fiction allows both readers and writers to step away from truth. And no one is ever going to say, "I want to publish this, but first I need to know how sincere you were when you wrote it." A lot matters when writing fiction, but truth and sincerity are not such things, in my opinion.
     

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