This is not consistent with what I have heard, including from a published writer with whom I have spoken at length. I agree that "good" and "bad" are highly subjective, but the days when a publishing firm would have an eager young editor work with a promising young writer to bring forth a latent talent are long gone. Everything I have heard and read suggests that a writer's work must be completely error-free if it is to have any chance at all.
Apparently that's what happened with a book I read recently. The GoodReads crowd said the author's debut novel was really good, but her second was a disappointment. I found it so-- if you're going to set your story in the real world, real-world rules of cause and effect should be followed. Somebody's editor was not on the job. This should tell you how I define an artistically bad book.
@EdFromNY, perhaps in terms of spelling and grammar your assertion is correct but there is a plethora of poorly written and 'purple' prose out there with a market for it. I think the point is that not every published author is up there with Joyce, Hemingway et al. Perhaps @thirdwind could clarify what he meant by 'mistakes'.
By mistakes I don't mean spelling errors or anything like that. I'm talking about places where the writer uses awkward phrasing, goes on tangents that have little to do with the story, etc. One notable example is John Milton's "mistake" in Paradise Lost. He uses the phrase "and then" way too often according to some scholars.
Then why is it when someone finally does get a deal they have to cut out 1/3 of the book and go through months of editor mandated changes before it's published. If it was...perfect?
Interesting. I must say I've never noticed that as a trend - I know the poem very well. Checking it out on an electronic copy I have of the poem, the words 'and the' appears ten times in book five alone, not counting the arguments that preface each book. Book ten it appears 15 times! I'm just picking books at random. I wonder what their point is, do you remember?
Part of it has to do with marketability. No reader (I imagine) wants to read a 2000-page tome. There are exceptions of course, especially when the writer has an established audience. If I remember correctly, I came across this in an edition of Beowulf. It was the Chickering translation to be specific. I don't remember if Chickering himself wrote the introduction or not, but it mentions that Beowulf has fewer mistakes than Paradise Lost and then gives "and then" as one example.
personal preference of the reader though. I am reading a book at the moment where the writer always says "about five minutes later, the bus came to a stop." "about ten minutes later, they arrived." "about twenty minutes later ..." You get my drift. There's no change, no "the journey took ten minutes" or "what felt like hours was just a five minute hold up". Which is probably why I've put it down for a while which is a shame because it's actually a good story.
Good point. Just checked it out. In book ten, 1,104 lines, 9,034 words. Might not seem like that many 'and the's in comparison to word count at first, but when the language is as specifically picked as Paradise Lost, it sort of is I would think. It's not usual for Milton to repeat words or phrases unless it is important - just look at the number of times the word 'first' appears in just the opening stanza. But still, for the life of me I cannot think what significance 'and the' or any variant the like would have on the poem. I'll have to get the copy of Beowulf thirdwind mentions, I've read the Chickering version of that poem but do not own it, and see if the introduction says anything specific. This has really got my interest, it does seem like this could be a stylistic flaw in Milton. It might be nothing, but it might not be.
I think one reason why some critics make a big deal out of it is that Paradise Lost follows a meter (blank verse in this case). When you use phrases like "and then" you're taking up 20% of a line with filler words. It comes off as unnecessary padding that's only there to preserve the meter.
Yeah. But still. When I was an undergrad the first thing we were told about Paradise Lost is that Milton uses language in very peculiar ways and we should always be alert - never idle to noticing it. Things like that could be a filler to keep the meter in check, that's quite common in English epic poetry after it became more Latinized (or not Old English/Anglo-Saxon) - other things, like his use of Iambic pentameter, is unusually out of synic for a reason. There we go, like I said above, filler to keep the meter in check.
I use the word "that" to many times. I don't notice it as I'm writing but as soon as I read what I wrote, I take at least half of them out.
Actually, I made a mistake. Filler words and phrases is extremely common of all epic poetry, regardless of the language. In Homer there are often character descriptions, Hector is always known as 'Horse breaker' for instance, it shows there is more than a hint of the usual improvisation in writing epic poetry. Milton's Paradise Lost is well known to have been dictated, since the poet himself was blind.
Editors don't "mandate" changes. They suggest, sometimes strongly, that something could be changed. It's still up to the author. Length - typically that will be discussed before a book is signed, particularly if it is sooooo long 1/3 of it will have to be cut. Books don't have to be perfect, but they have to be a lot more polished than many authors submit.
Sign of the times. Every business these days is looking to do more with less manpower. So I can fully understand a publishing business downsizing it's resources around writers who have more than potential, writers who have immediate marketability. It's getting harder and harder to stand out because it's easier and easier to go direct with writing these days so the market is flooded with choices. Once upon a time (before the internet) the only way new writing came to the market was via a bookstore. Times have changed.
OP, your topic is essentially what got me writing my own story, I read Lord Valentine('s castle) and the first book from the riddle-master trilogy and decided that if THESE books could get published, then I am most certainly writing my own. Regardless of my doubts about my novel, I'll still strive to get it published (traditionally though) because if garbage like THOSE can get published.....(al Additionally, I remember one guy mentioning to me a novel called 'assassin's apprentice' that had a main character who probably didn't say more than ten words in the entire novel in addition to being very submissive throughout. Reading the comments on amazon, there are people who absolutely trashed the novel and others who loved it. Honestly, you'll find people who'll love your work and people who'll hate it. My opinion? Just write it. I'm just worried that if I'm not writing something in a vein that's popular (like this year's harry potter or twilight), that I'll only get rejected by publishers. Thanks to the two novels I mentioned in addition to also reading about the many rejection letters that first time authors received, I'm determined to write my story the way I want and to reach out to whichever publisher/agent I can and get it published no matter what.
