1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843

    Concrete vs Abstract

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by GuardianWynn, May 9, 2015.

    A friend of mine whom I think is a good writer was taking a strong position. I think it was a bit extreme. She was saying that fiction writing should always try and be concrete or use the things that can be described firmly in the five senses.

    I am expecting you guys think abstract has a time and a place as well as concrete. I just wondering when you think each should be used.

    To add an example. I had a line like this. The friend of mine said this was bad.

    "The familiar sensation of having to pee in the morning woke Jackie up. Poking her head out of the blanket with half open eyes she felt the cold morning air on her face. It was a demon she was not yet willing to face as she retreated back under the blanket."

    My friend thought the use of demon ruined this. Opinions?
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I'm not crazy about the line, but more because I think "demon" is a little strong for the every-day sensation of having to climb out of a warm bed. I don't think there's a concreteness vs abstractness issue.

    I'm trying to think of how the rule would apply in other ways. I mean, if demons were real, they'd be concrete, right? So is she objecting to all figurative language, or to the use of imaginary creatures as figurative tools, or...?
     
  3. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    Yeah basically. Her argument was something along the lines "The isn't a demon. So demon is abstract or figurative which is bad writing."
    Seemed extreme but I figured there probably is a line of when to use and when to avoid figurative terms. Any opinion?
     
  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I think it's a question of style. Lots of great writers use lots of figurative language. Lots of crappy writers use lots of figurative language.

    I certainly don't think figurative language is wrong or bad. Well used, it can add depth and richness to a story. Does she have some sort of authority for what she's saying, or is it just an idiosyncratic thought on her part?
     
    ChickenFreak likes this.
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    I think it is her own opinion. So you don't think figurative has a proper place? Just skill of the writer?
     
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I think its proper place is anywhere it adds to the writing. If it's taken too far it can turn into purple prose or the writing can get confusing, but assuming it's used well? I think it can be used anywhere.
     
    GuardianWynn likes this.
  7. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    For examples of abstract, look at Kafka.
     
  8. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    Huh? Who is Kafka?
     
  9. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I wouldn't mind the use of demon if the sentences were edgier. Right now with the flow-y tone of the sentences - demon sticks out. Also the context might not suit it.

    Demon is an edgy word, a sharp image. It needs a good context to set it up. Right now it doesn't feel like it suits the surroundings or the tone. I would maybe just crop it out and leave the sentence as - Not yet willing to face/brave the cold she snuggled/retreated back under her blanket.

    I'm for either or - abstract or concrete - as long as it suits what you're trying to say for the moment and the overall book. I think though metaphors and abstractions can get writers into trouble because they can often be pulled out of an idea that doesn't suit the immediate scene or tone. For me viewing the cold as demonic is maybe for a homeless teenager who wakes up in an abandoned apartment building. The cold becomes viewed as an entity against her. But if it's just a young girl whose trying to stall off getting out of bed it becomes too unnecessarily dramatic.
     
    GuardianWynn likes this.
  10. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    I almost fainted when I read this. Kafka is one of the greatest writers of the 20th century. Look him up, and read his stuff. He's very good.
     
    Megalith, Mckk and Lemex like this.
  11. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    "The familiar sensation of having to pee in the morning woke Jackie up.​
    I'd describe it as more annoying than familiar. Consider adding something that suggests how the character feels about the sensation rather than just recognizing it. We all recognize it. Or just leave the adjective out, again, the reader knows it is a familiar sensation to the character.

    "Poking her head out of the blanket with half open eyes she felt the cold morning air on her face. It was a demon she was not yet willing to face as she retreated back under the blanket."​
    Too many adjectives in the first sentence and I agree with @peachalulu, demon is the wrong word here, regardless of abstract vs concrete. Perhaps the person critiquing the work didn't verbalize the problem well.

    I also agree one could change the rest of the paragraph to make demon work rather than changing 'demon'. Unless she has an issue with the cold, "cold morning air" is not the demon, something else about the morning is.

     
  12. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    He was this guy: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka. All about the abstract, symbolism, metaphors, etc. Metamorphosis is a good example of that, Kafka probably didn't want us to think the MC literally turned into a giant bug, it was meant to be symbolic.
     
  13. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I saw a wonderful stage production of The Metamorphosis once, Gregor was a guy in his underwear that became increasingly covered in tar, making all these strange movements that suggested the transformation was purely psychological - certainly psychologically metaphorical. As for the story itself, I always got the impression the change happened. To each their own interpretation I guess.

    As to the OP. I once heard an editor of a magazine say 'Abstraction is the enemy of good poetry'. I don't think that's always the case to be honest, I think such a comment is reductive. But if you are just starting out in fiction and use 'abstraction' as a cover, especially for something you have not thought through carefully enough, then you should be taken behind the chemical sheds and shot.
     
  14. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    I lost you at Abstraction as a cover
     
  15. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I've been to a university creative writing workshop. I've seen far too many instances of people just saying 'Oh, it's abstract' to hide the fact they cannot be bothered to think up a point for whatever was supposed to be abstract. People use 'Lol! 2 deep 4 u!' to pretend they are saying more than they really are.
     
    GuardianWynn likes this.
  16. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    There was a member on here once who basically denounced all writing that wasn't literal to be utter trash - and I must say, I vehemently disagree.

    Don't ever let someone else tell you how you should write. Too much of anything is bad. If your figurative language does not convey the message clearly and conjure some reaction or emotion or provoke thought - then yes, it probably doesn't have to be there. And yes, figurative language is easy to overuse and use badly. But there's always a time and place, and with practice you come to know when to use such language and how much, and more important, exactly how.

    I write pretty figuratively - so far, nearly everyone who's read my writing seems to rather enjoy it. Am I about to ditch it - my way of writing, my style, my voice, what makes writing fun for me - because one writer who can't seem to appreciate styles outside of her own says it's bad?

    Not a chance in the world. And you shouldn't either. There's more than just one way to write.
     
    minstrel and GuardianWynn like this.
  17. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    I like your opinion.

    I get caught up in learning. I mean I know I am no master. So I try to meaningfully listen to advice but I guess I have to be careful. Not all advise is good. Please reply to this too. You need a second like for this message :D. lol.

    Thank you.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  18. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    978
    I find this offensive.
     
    BayView and Mckk like this.
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I mispoke. I don't know how that conditional got in there. I meant to say, "I mean, demons are real, so your friend's talking out of her ass, obviously."
     
    Mckk and daemon like this.
  20. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Lool. I promise I'm not replying just to get a second like :D

    And yeah, always be open to learn, but then try and fit what you've learnt into your way of doing things :supercheeky:
     
    GuardianWynn likes this.
  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    You can do it, @GuardianWynn . I think you're awesome and I really like you (Hint, Hint).
     
  22. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    843
    I feel like I am missing something here. I can be kind of dense sometimes
     
  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I believe we have strayed away from the original post, somewhat. Probably the more you miss, the better.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice