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  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    How do you know if your characters are developed enough?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by deadrats, Oct 19, 2017.

    I just finished a short story that is on the longer side for short stories, but I'm having a really hard time figuring out if my characters are coming across as real and fully formed. It's written in close third, and I really had a hard time finding an appropriate place to include very much description. I think this is a good story. I've done several drafts of it so when I say it's finished, it's just about as good as I think I can make it, but I am worried about my characters. How do I know if they are developed enough? Surely, physical description is not the most important thing when it comes to developing characters, right?

    My story is about thirty pages and there aren't too many characters. So, it would seem with all that page space that these characters must be at least somewhat developed. I don't know. I feel like I'm second guessing myself all the time. I don't even know if this is a good story. I just know that it's pretty sparse when it comes to physical descriptions. And I know I'm getting sick of this story. I just can't go through it again without more of a plan of action. I think it reads clean and polished, but I do believe it's good characters that make good stories. How do you know if your characters are any good? And how do you know when they are fully developed?
     
  2. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    In my opinion I don’t think there’s a general rule for it, but nearly entirely based on the situation/genre/opinion/et.

    So, do you feel like your characters are still missing part? If not, since you’re the writer, the characters are developed enough. Doesn’t mean others could persuade you by pointing out some potential errors, maybe get a few beta readers?
     
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  3. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Have some people read it. Once you pass the point of perspective there ain't much more you can do without feedback.
     
  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not sure why people think beta readers are the answer to anything or everything. Do you guys really rely on beta readers for everything? I write far too much to take up that practice. And I do want to be able to work without seeking external input or validation. I'm not a beginner, and at this point I'm not sure what feedback from some strangers would really do for me. I've traded stories or shared my work with people, but it rarely seems to help me fix anything I'm struggling with any more than just discussing the issue would. I don't need someone to say, "You should develop your characters more." I'm just looking for how you guys, my fellow writer friends, figure out if your characters are developed enough and what you can do about it. Thanks in advance to anyone who has tips on this.
     
  5. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Because they're the ones that have to read it and, in theory, pay money for your product. Not to sound harsh here, but you keep posting about the tomes of rejection letters you receive on a regular basis, which tells me that the editors don't think readers want to read your work. Seems to me you might save yourself sound headaches and heartache by vetting your stories through some trusted readers first to find out what is or is not working for them. The short answer is that nobody gives a shit about the writer's intentions or self-proclaimed prowess. It's all about their personal consumption. They're certainly not the answer to everything, but every product is useless until it's vetted through a test market.

    Again, not to sound harsh, but you sound like a chef in an empty restaurant wondering why nobody wants to come in and eat his food. Usually it's because they don't like the way it tastes, which is why any chef worth her salt elicits as much feedback and criticism as possible. Else the readers will go eat somewhere else. They don't need your product. There's plenty of options out there.

    By having other people read it and then tell me what works and what doesn't work. The same way I have my people taste my food. If they think it's too salty, I use less salt. If they think it tastes flat, I add more salt. It doesn't matter what you think about the sauce if nobody wants to eat it. This isn't to say that I don't have some idea of how well developed my characters are, but until others read it I have no way of determining whether what I intended came through in the text or not. Even bestsellers rely on a circle of trusted readers and wouldn't leave themselves twisting in the wind without them.
     
  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I guess I don't have the same blind faith that a beta reader will know any better than I will what's wrong and how to fix it. I was hoping to talk about character development and not betas.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I definitely think that beta readers have value, and I'm puzzled as to why you don't, but that would be a different thread.

    To me, "real and fully formed" is about personality and emotion. You mention physical description three times in your post, and I'm not sure why--have you been getting feedback that that's what's lacking?

    I've never been a fan of character profiles--actually, I'm strongly opposed to them. But I do think that after a character is written into a story, it should be possible to talk about them for a while with some level of familiarity and interest and even fondness, rather as if they're a person that you know.

    But that just reflects whether the character is fully formed in your mind, not whether you've communicated that in the story. And for that, it's hard to tell without seeing the story. A character's, er, character can be communicated with thoughts and emotions. It can be communicated with dialogue. It can be communicated with behavior.

    I tend to go to Rumer Godden's An Episode of Sparrows for examples. I offer this bit:

    One night it had been even later than usual when Vincent switched off the restaurant light to go to bed. Mrs. Combie always left a gas jet burning for him on the second floor, and by its faint glimmer, as he came up, he had seen something white. It was Lovejoy as he had first seen her, sitting on the stairs. But it's one o'clock! thought Vincent. She was in her ragged pyjamas, a blanket had been put round her, but when he touched her bare feet they were cold as stones; her head leaned against the banister, and her cheek, when he brushed it with his finger, was wet.

    Vincent stood up, his mouth in a small straight line. He had stayed for a moment, looking at the closed door; then he picked Lovejoy up, carried her downstairs, put her on the old sofa in the kitchen, tucked the blanket round her, and went back. After a moment, he had quietly and firmly knocked.

    The only direct look that we have into Vincent's head is that one tagged thought. But this is nevertheless, IMO, a character scene.
     
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  8. alanzie

    alanzie Member

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    You should know your characters. Do you care about them? If so, distance yourself from your work. Try to read it yourself with none of the pre-existing knowledge you have concerning your players. It is tough, because they are your children. . .your literary spawn, so to speak. So you know them. You know their birthmarks, their bad habits, their scars. The reader doesn't know them. They must come across in the story WITHOUT telling the reader about their birthmark, bad habits and scars. Actions certainly speak louder than words, so give them everyday actions. Have them leave a little tuna in the can when they make their sandwich and give it to the cat. Have them chug milk out of the carton when their spouse isn't looking (or even when they are, just to bug them).
    I don't do outlines. I have no idea where my story is going while I'm writing it. I put my characters into a situation and just sit back and see how they work their way out of it. Of course, having no outline means at the beginning, my characters have, well, no character. That being the case, my learn of my characters traits while writing my first draft and, by my second edit, I have a pretty good idea who they are. By doing it this way, both my action and character traits are developed 'on the fly' with gentle nudging from me.
    I have basic ideas for my stories. Setting, a few scene ideas, general theme. . .but that's about it. I don't know my characters at all in the beginning, but by the end, they are my acquaintances, if not my best friends.
    Get to know your characters. Put them in danger and see what they will do. Pretty soon, the action of your writing will reflect what the characters do. And believe me, your characters will take on a life of their own if you only let them.
     
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  9. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I hear you. And I'm not trying to hijack or anything, but character development is one of those things that's tough to evaluate on your own. You appear to be a serious writer engaged in a serious attempt at publication, which means you have to don a different hat when the writing is finished. You kind of have to move from a mindset of production (writing) to one of consumption (getting readers to give you money). There's only so much you can do on your own. For me at least, the biggest problems I have with character development don't reveal themselves until a reader is confused/skeptical/dubious as to the character's behavior or intentions. And most of these blindside me because I know exactly what the character is doing and why so there's never any confusion in my own mind.

    And there's no blind faith with beta readers at all. They're external opinions that contribute to the consummation of the story. If one or two people don't like something but everyone else does, then, great. No real problem. You can't please everyone. But if everyone notices the same problem there's a 100% chance that what you wrote needs fixing. This happens all the time.

    Opinions are like assholes, but unfortunately, if you want them to give you their money, theirs are the only ones that matter.
     
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  10. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I don't personally know a single successful writer who doesn't use betas before officially submitting to a publisher or self-publishing, and via social media I know many now who are selling plenty of novels/novellas/short stories. I'm not saying beta-less writers who are getting paid for their work on the regular don't exist, but I haven't met one so far.

    Good betas, especially ones who are also writers, are fully capable of giving detailed feedback and making suggestions for improvement. Writing by committee isn't great, but I don't think writing in a vacuum is much better.

    My betas aren't "strangers", they are other authors whose own work I enjoy and opinion I respect.

    I know you don't want to talk about betas, but the only answer I have to the questions "How do you know if your characters are any good?" and "How do you know when they are fully developed?" is that I write them them to a point where I'm personally satisfied, and then I ask for feedback from others because it's universally been true for me that it makes even the the good stuff I've written even better.
     
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  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I can't help chiming in about beta readers. @deadrats , it seems like you're seeing them as graders or professors--seeing the relationship as one where they have authority over you.

    I'd suggest thinking of them more as tasters. If you're working on a recipe, the opinions of others can be useful. And the opinionated of the well-informed can be extra useful. It's not as if you have to take the advice, but you're likely to be so deeply in your story that you will fail to see certain things.
     
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    If you are dead set against using betas—and I'm of the opinion that betas give you the kind of perspective you won't ever get from yourself—there is a workaround. You're probably not going to like it, but here goes.

    Put your story away. Write something else. In fact, write several more stories. You seem to be able to generate lots of them, so write a few more. Then, when you have more or less forgotten about this particular story, or at least forgotten the mode you were in when you wrote it, go back and read it again. I guarantee that if you let enough time elapse and put enough distance between it and you, that you will look at it with fresh eyes.

    Nobody else will be telling you what to do, but you'll be able to see your own flaws. What's even better is you will be able to figure out how to fix them. You'll be dispassionate about your story by then—it'll be as if somebody else wrote it—and that's the attitude you need if you plan to make objective decisions about it. Decisions like are my characters developed enough?

    Don't be in a huge rush to submit stories for publication. Write lots of them, but give yourself enough distance between writing and editing each one, so you can develop that dispassionate eye. When you have achieved that distance, you'll no longer need to ask 'are my characters developed enough?' You will know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
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  13. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    This is going to sound harsh, but NEWSFLASH: If you publish your work, like it or not, you will get feedback from strangers. They will hunt you down to let you know what they think of your work, and in my experience, the people who hunt the hardest to tell you what they think are people who do not like what you wrote. They will tell you, in no uncertain terms, what they don't like, why they don't like it, what you should have done instead, or why you should not have taken on the subject matter. They tend to be far more vocal than people who give you praise.

    That being the case, far better to use Betas so you can fix glaring problems before you publish. Then, and only then, can you truly take negative responses to your work with the same grain of salt you take praise.
     
  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    They might be able to give you some perspective on why you aren't getting published... harsh to say but you may not be a beginner but if you keep getting rejected there could be a reason other than bad luck

    ETA: oops wrong thread, but the point remains valid... none of us are so perfect we have nothing left to learn
     
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  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't always use betas, but when I'm stuck on something or unsure of how something is going to come across, I do.

    So, for example, if I were:

    I think I'd try to find out how my characters are coming across by talking to people the characters are supposed to be coming across to.

    So don't overstate the case and act as if people are saying "beta readers are the answer to anything or everything". We're saying beta readers are the answer to figuring out how your stories are coming across to others.
     
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  16. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Obviously not and I'm super confused as to why you would even ask this.

    How many words is thirty pages? Is this Shunn formatted with about 300w per page, so ~9k all total? I dunno, I think you can probably waffle a lot and not actually say much and hit 9k non problem. I'm not saying this is what you've done, but I don't think length = development.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Not to pile on the beta train, but ... when someone tells me so. Then I know it worked for at least two people: me and them. Beyond that, who knows. I don't think this stuff is as objective as we'd like it to be. I might think I did a fantastic job developing and fleshing out a character, and I might've put a lot of work into it, but unless it clicks for other people, it's kinda worthless.

    I try to imagine characters in different scenarios. Someone up above mentioned worksheets / questionnaires, I think, and while I don't use them as dev tools (I do think they can be fun), it's a similar exercise. I like to flesh them out by seeing how it makes sense for them to react in various circumstances, making sure things are consistent and coming up with new features, etc. In LAFS one of the main characters is pretty unapproachable and kind of a dick, but I threw them into a scene with a kid and realized that of course they'd be great with kids - it opened up an aspect of their character that I hadn't really paid attention to before. The other main character is a massive flirt, but when I threw him into a scene with another flirtatious character, it didn't feel right for him to go along with the banter - instead he got flustered and embarrassed, because he has low self-esteem and doesn't expect anyone to actually react to him that way. If I hadn't run these holodeck simulations scenarios, these two characters would've been flatter, more generic 'prickly jerk' and 'shameless flirt' types. I dunno if they're fully realized yet - actually, I know at least one of them isn't - but that helped me.

    In general, I like to write characters with a core contradiction. Eg, the guy who acts all suave and confident but isn't at all, or the snippy jackass with a warm gooey center. It has to be a contradiction that still makes sense, and isn't just completely inexplicable , but it helps them to not just come across as an archetype. (Not that 'jackass with a heart of gold' etc isn't an archetype on its own, but it's a place to start.)

    Step two is making sure that this development is actually shown in the work itself. Both of the 'test' scenes I mention actually just fit into the novel (with some adaptation from the original concepts), so that wasn't a problem. If you know what the core concept of the character is, what their motivations are, what their tragic flaw or core contradiction or whatever it is they've got under the hood IS, then find a way to show it. A lot. Keep their behavior consistent with those qualities (until/unless it starts to change, at which point, keep showing it as it changes). My jackass with a heart of gold is a jackass 90% of the time, but we slowly get to see the heart of gold, and the revelation of it informs why they're a jackass, so it remains consistent. I show my work, and I show how/why the character works, so that hopefully, a reader can also imagine what they'd do if plonked into an unfamiliar scenario.

    Also, when someone who's read your work tells you "this reminded me of [character]" or "I could imagine [character] doing/saying this" it is absolutely the most gratifying thing in the world.

    (Apologies for any typos, it has been A Day and I can't be bothered to read this nonsense back.)
     
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  17. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I get where @deadrats is coming from. When you feel you've moved beyond being a 'beginner', for want of a better word, you feel as though these are elements of writing you should have a good grasp on, and things that beta readers won't necessarily be able to help with.

    Maybe @deadrats feels his characters may be pretty well-rounded already, and is simply asking what he needs to be looking for in order to establish one way or the other.

    I'm having much the same problem with my own characters, constantly wondering if they're under-developed and flat, but beta readers is not something I would consider looking into at this point.

    Another thing to consider about BR, is that just like writers, there are good and bad ones out there. Many millions of 'readers' wouldn't know a well-developed character (or an under-developed one for that matter) if they were kicked up the arse by one.
     
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  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm totally, totally not seeing that. Beta readers aren't training wheels. I've heard of plenty of thoroughly famous authors who have beta readers.
     
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  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    And it's not the job of beta readers to suggest improvements, exactly - they're not editors. They just tell you how they reacted to your writing. "I loved this part, I didn't like this part, the characters didn't grab me, I loved the characters..." whatever.

    If you're writing for an audience, why the hell wouldn't you want to try things out on an audience?
     
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  20. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly! And none of the above would help me in my aim to create well-rounded characters.

    I don't need a weatherman to tell me when it's raining.
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Why not?

    Imagine, from beta readers:

    "I don't really feel that I understand John--he doesn't feel real to me."
    "Jane seems really sweet at the beginning, and then she changes for no reason that I can figure out. I'm not saying that un-sweet is bad, in fact I like the salty version better, but mostly I don't get it?
    "Fred seems to be all over the place."

    Are you totally, totally confident that the beta readers would be wrong and that the whole rest of the reading public would be completely free of those issues?
     
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  22. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I mean, they could tell you if they thought the characters weren't well-rounded, which'd let you know you weren't necessarily done yet.

    eta: I think there's this idea that betas are going to be uninformed about writing, or even just reading, and that's why they won't be able to help. My suggestion to that would just be to find better betas. When I wanted betas for LAFS, I asked a couple people who were my friends, yes, but were also active readers and writers to some degree themselves. My other options are family members who are active, critical readers (but inhibited by like, loving me and stuff, gross) and asking around on here of people who I respect as writers and readers.

    I firmly believe that there's utility to getting people to just read it and tell you what they thought, as readers. But also, like ... find betas whose thoughts and opinions you respect. And if you can find someone like that who's willing to help you workshop things, discuss them, and reread them, chain yourself to them, probably.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  23. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    It's not that I can't see the benefit of having a BR tell me they thought a character was 2d, but I'm not sure this is what @deadrats is looking for.
     
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  24. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Deadrats is "having a really hard time figuring out if [his] characters are coming across as real and fully formed." So I guess I'm not sure it's what he's looking for, but it sure seems like what he's looking for...
     
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  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Well, his end goal and one of the advantages of having a beta reader certainly seem to match up nicely. I'm not clear on why he's rejecting that path to the goal, but...
     

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