1. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    Discussion: What defines a character of authority?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Lazaares, May 20, 2021.

    A topic that's been living rent-free in my head since the war veteran thread & the brief discussion on what and how orders are issued. I've a whole slew of characters in various positions of authority and leadership in my current project; it's always interested me how people "define" authority, and how it's best expressed & portrayed.

    Characters of authority refers to any character in a position of authority, leadership, command, management, etc. These are figures in a hierarchy who are "above" others. How they are portrayed communicates a lot of information about the hierarchy itself - because of this, the portrayal is a useful tool of narrative and worldbuilding.

    A society & hierarchy built purely on strength will reveal their leader by sheer looks; the strongest and most built, largest-frame member who might be challenged over his hegemony for a good old punch & kick. This society will in turn foster wrath, infighting, paranoia and a likely submission of the weak.

    Human societies are more complex; most of all it has changed and shifted over time and has rewarded different traits in different eras. There's a splendid comparison between the heroic attributes of Achilles & Odysseus to provide a good example of (possible) shift in a society's perception of a leader.

    Some examples for figures of authority from various literature: Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape (Harry Potter), Theoden, Gandalf, Tom Bombadil (LOTR), Emmanuel Comte (Malevil), Prince Bolkonsky, both Emperors (War & Peace), Inspector Lestrade (Sherlock Holmes stories), Inspector Japp (Poirot novellas), Inspector Javert (Les Miserables).

    I invite you to a discussion on the topic of these characters; here's three driving questions I'm very interested to hear you answer.

    1. In your favourite era of human history, or alternatively, in your favourite fictional world - what defines a leader, a person who is followed and who can command resources on a large scale?

    2. Do you think there are traits that are permanent marks of leadership? Characteristics that made leaders with minor or major influence no matter the era or world? What are they?

    3. From your own life & experience, who is a person you considered a prime example of leadership and authority? What made them so?
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    About the pure strength leadership thing—it's not just on looks, a strong leader needs to actually be strong, emotionally as well as physically, or he/she will be replaced very quickly.

    A leader who tries to do things the society doesn't like can get away with it for a time, especially if he or she is intimidating enough (that includes using military or police forces to intimidate the people) but beyond a certain point if that leader loses the trust of the people it's all over. This is why it's always been said that a king must be everyone's servant. And there's no retirement plan for kings. It's either exile or death.
     
  3. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    I notice that several of these are police detectives...they are certainly authority figures in the sense that they are enforcing rules, but I wouldn't really think of e.g Javert as a leader. In fact I think in the book Hugo talks about how even the other police think he's kinda weird. He's not rallying even his own colleagues to a greater purpose, instead he tries to do everything himself.

    Maybe another question: is "leader" a subset of "authority figure"? Or is a leader someone who makes the rules, or enforces other peoples' rules, or (as I suspect is usually the case) does a bit of both?
     
  4. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    That's exactly a point to be raised. If I recall right, Javert himself had an inside conflict about that.

    Similar to Inspector Japp; he's usually portrayed as an "amateur" compared to Poirot and Hastings, barging in to do the arrests. In numerous novellas I recall this is a personal conflict of his when he feels himself outshadowed by Poirot, despite being the actual representation of authority at the scene. Curiously, I felt the same tension between Aragorn and Theoden in the LOTR books, sadly only represented in a select few scenes in the movie trilogy.

    This is in direct contrast with the historical relationship between Napoléon and his Chief of Staff, Marshal Berthier. Berthier 100% accepted his position as a "second" and "subordinate" to a genius and worked best to support Bonaparte. At one point in Italy he pulled the line "One day it will be good to be second to Bonaparte" - lo and behold, less than a decade later he was senior above all other marshals and (as he predicted) the second man in the Empire. I rarely see this form of relationship depicted in literature.

    I didn't list leaders & examples of perfect authority descriptions, more so various characters that take up a position of either command or authority over others. Whether they handle it good or bad in-character varies greatly, but I believe they are all well-written from an outside/audience perspective.

    An interesting thought there; I believe most societies reward cunning and deception. That's usually the way leaders handle these acts they normally couldn't get away with.
     
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  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Well, if a leader is cunning and deceptive enough to fool the people, then they can get away with whatever they're doing. But it's important to understand—the people aren't knowingly supporting cunning and deception, they're being deceived/taken advantage of.

    This is why so many politicians support certain policies for the people that they themselves don't follow. Wolves in sheep's clothing as the saying goes. Many people drawn to positions of authority are power-hungry and deceptive, and certain institutions actually reward sociopathic or psychopathic behavior. But generally they hide this from the people as well as they can (the entire industry does) and present themselves as saints.
     
  6. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    1. In your favourite era of human history, or alternatively, in your favourite fictional world - what defines a leader, a person who is followed and who can command resources on a large scale? Isaac Shelby, John Sevier, and a handful of other relatively ordinary men organized Scotch-Irish hunters and farmers into a fighting force that crossed the Appalachian Mountains to defend their homes after British Major Patrick Ferguson sent a message stating his intent to "march his army over the mountains, hang their leaders and lay their country waste with fire and sword.” Together with some folks from the eastern side of the mountains, these men, known as the Overmountain Men, handed Ferguson his ass on a tray at King's Mountain, took 700 prisoners, then went back home, having turned the course of the American Revolution. The leaders of this expedition were common men who earned the respect of other common men via their dependability, trustworthiness, and ability to think on their feet.

    2. Do you think there are traits that are permanent marks of leadership? Characteristics that made leaders with minor or major influence no matter the era or world? What are they? no answer

    3. From your own life & experience, who is a person you considered a prime example of leadership and authority? What made them so? My daughter. A few months ago, I was talking to one of the officers at the police department where she is now a detective. This officer (I'll call him Dan) is a very large and capable man. He related how he, my daughter, and several other officers were on scene at an incident involving some belligerent offenders on motorcycles. One of the bikers saw Officer Dan and decided it would suit him just fine to pick a fight with a cop about his own size. He started for Dan, making threats. My daughter, less than five and a half feet tall, immediately stepped between the two men and firmly deescalated the situation. She is, Dan said, the kind of person who commands respect that goes beyond size and physical force. Her grandfather and uncle, also law enforcement officers, had the same sort of authority, along with much more imposing physical statures.
     
  7. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    This resonates perfectly with me. Specifically because the person I knew in life who commanded the most authority with her presence was a mathematics teacher we had; similar in height. The phenomenon was exactly the same. I had classmates that teased teachers, annoyed them, pranked them a lot. Their targets were male teachers 6' and above, sportsmen who were buff and had the physical presence. But they never teased this one maths teacher - in fact, they were completely silent and obedient in her class.

    I have long tried to decipher the specific qualities and behaviour that resulted in that (mostly my collection of snippets and ideas to answer #2).

    Confidence is definitely part of it; a person who doesn't hesitate and makes decisions quick & final. Formality and maturity is another component I'd say, where a person refrains from arbitrary acts and counterproductive actions. It's a reason why I've also noticed that people with an air of authority very rarely curse or insult. In fact, I've noticed that swearing is usually a baggage from bad upbringing / environment while insults tend to hint of a serious lack of confidence. Organisation is yet another part to it, where a person seems always up-to-speed and in control of the situation, full and well-spoken in their sentences and never forgetful. Knowledge is likely the last to note, where a person is prepared with knowledge of the situation, the task at hand and all others who are present. In this sense, knowledge might really be power.

    Two movie examples where all the above are "ticked": one evil and one ... not.
    Tywin was a good man.
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I think you might be looking at a too-small sample of authority figures. I immediately thought of Sargent Hartman from Full Metal Jacket. An undisputed authority figure, curses like—well, like a Marine drill instructor, and insults all the time.

    I think how they comport themselves has to do with the environment. A schoolteacher in an upper middle class area wouldn't curse or insult, but a dock boss in a bad neighborhood where you have to be tough as nails to survive probably would.
     
  9. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    I don't actually consider him a good figure of authority, or a good example for anything but a drill instructor. All Quiet on the Western Front incorporates this partially where the soldiers end up getting revenge / pranking the drill sergeant.

    Take this example; which would you consider a more firm, more authoritan figure?

    1. The drill sergeant enters the barracks and yells. Everyone gets to their positions. He walks down the line, staring into each eye as they sweat. He spots a messy bed and yells at the soldier to stand forward. He screams insults at him, then has him do pushups. The rest are dead-silent and afraid.

    2. The drill sergeant enters the barracks. Everyone immediately gets to their positions. He walks down the line; still hasn't said a single word. He spots the messy bed and slows down towards the soldier. The soldier begins to sweat, nervous. The drill sergeant asks the soldier whether he wants to fly home straight or do pushups while the rest have breakfast. The soldier whimpers and jolts into pushup position. The rest remain dead silent.

    3. The last general enters the tent where the rest of his fellows gather. They immediately fall silent. He walks down the line and greets them by name before taking position at the head of the table. He beckons the rest to commence discussion. They raise various topics and ideas. At one point, our general clears his throat to gain attention. Everyone falls silent and they turn to him. He politely highlights one specific general's complete and utter failure in executing a maneuver they just proposed. The rest of the generals agree while the one highlighted flames up in shame. Our general then proposes they continue discussion without him. The shamed general nods and departs the scene.
     
  10. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    In fact I've noticed that in general, the middle class tends to be more well behaved. The lower and working class are often rowdy and crass because they have to be, and the upper class is often obnoxious because they can get away with it, and because they were often raised to be arrogant. Of course these days I'm seeing a lot of middle class people being arrogant and obnoxious largely because they were spoiled (which can ruin a person's character) and due to programming they're picking up in school and through the mass media.
     
  11. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    The best teacher I remember taught maths and Irish for the Leaving Certificate in 1980's. In two years he never once had to raise his voice. In the first week, he covered the Intermediate Cert course and taught us in a week what our previous teacher had spent two years making unfathomable. He taught maths by going through the problems with us, writing on the black board, occasionally arriving at the wrong answer and teaching us even more as he backtracked to discover the error. He set very high standards and this was infectious. He was invested in teaching us to the best of his ability and, above all else, this taught us that we were worthy of his effort. So we returned the sentiment and tried very hard in his class. Occasionally, I still have palpitations on a Sunday evening, even though I haven't had double Irish for over 30years.

    Since then, I've had bosses that I'd walk over burning glass for and these are the ones that muck in and will cover my back. Not the ones who throw hospital passes or exert their authority by niggly corrections on a report when my spelling was actually correct (I thought I was over that!). The best leaders, in my experience, are less concerned with being leaders than on getting the job done, whatever that might be, who are confident enough to admit mistakes and draw the best out of the "team". People, maybe eventually, see through bullshit.
     
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  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Well, authoritarian is probably the wrong word. It means somebody who uses their authority for self-aggrandizement and to mistreat others. But you might have meant authoritative, which is more to the point.

    But I think you're missing something very important. A drill instructor, or a teacher in a 'bad neighborhood' school or anyone in certain kinds of environments, needs to earn the respect of some really rough and ill-tempered people. Many of them will laugh at a person who doesn't understand their lifestyle ('street') and who can't talk to them in their own language. Try to ,imagine an ivy league professor (not Jordan Peterson) in a tweed jacket with elbow patches lecturing a bunch of inner-city gangsters.

    In fact this was the premise of the movie The Principal, starring Jim Belushi. He didn't know how to deal with the really bad kids at the ghetto school, so Louis Gosset jr, the janitor iirc, helped him out, told him what he needed to know. And when he rode onto the campus on a motorcycle with a baseball bat sheathed beside the seat and showed that he wasn't afraid to use it, he earned their respect.

    In a different setting of course, a tweed jacket with elbow patches and a lofty Harvard manner would be the right approach.
     
  13. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    1. In your favourite era of human history, or alternatively, in your favourite fictional world - what defines a leader, a person who is followed and who can command resources on a large scale?
    Experience, charisma, connections, personal integrity (taken from the Honorverse, Honor Harrington. Though I wouldn't define this series as my 'favourite fictional world).

    2. Do you think there are traits that are permanent marks of leadership? Characteristics that made leaders with minor or major influence no matter the era or world? What are they?
    More or less the same as above. Also opportunity/chance. Sometimes a person takes an action because he/she needs to from inner conviction even though they don't see where it leads to, discover they're thrust into this place of authority and then can't/won't back off in the face of adversity because of these same inner conviction.

    3. From your own life & experience, who is a person you considered a prime example of leadership and authority? What made them so?[/QUOTE]
    The same as 1 + 2. It applies to my best friend. Also like @B.E. Nugent : absolute trust that this person covers my back, no matter what.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  14. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    Wouldn't a person commanding the same respect without those showcases / actions be seen as more in control? That was the point of my three examples:

    The first commands discipline in people far beneath in the hierarchy through harsh words & yelling.
    The second commands discipline in people far beneath in the hierarchy through sheer presence and doesn't have to resort to the above.
    The third commands discipline in people similarly ranked in the hierarchy through sheer presence and doesn't have to resort to the above.

    The last was an example of Louis-Nicolas Davout from the French army.

    There were examples above for teachers and a police detective who, without much of a word or actions, can change the behaviour of problematic people through sheer presence. That is my interest here; and that is why I'm not fond of the "drill instructor" character - handed the same authority over fresh soldiers, I would expect far more to handle it well than people who can inspire similar discipline through sheer presence. Even less people who inspire that for equals.
     
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  15. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    Curious that you mention it! The same maths teacher I noted had a very similar effect on the class. I had classmates who believed they were incapable in mathematics. This teacher pushed them until they tried beyond their best; at least one of them ended up passing their end-of-high-school exam solely because he excelled in the topics taught specifically by this teacher even though he was clueless about the rest.
     
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  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It's nice when an authority figure has a good enough crew that he or she can afford to remain calm. But the whole thing about authority is, he has to be ready willing and able at the drop of a hat to be the meanest person in the room (or the field). I'm just going to default to he for simplicity's sake.

    What does the nice authority figure do when his authority is challenged? He can't remain nice and friendly. If he does he's a joke, a failed authority. He needs to take no bullshit.

    Of course it's nice if there are no class clowns challenging him, and that might happen at times, but that wouldn't test his authority. When tested he needs to step up to the plate. And if the people under his command are street fighters or assholes, he needs to demonstrate (probably by making an example of at least one of them) that he gets it, that's he's one of them, and knows their lingo and their ways, and can kick their asses if it comes to that. Otherwise they've undermined his authority. He needs to gain their respect. And there are a lot of people who don't respect someone who can't see through their bullshit. They practiced on their parents all their lives.

    Now that doesn't necessarily mean physical combat or anything, it can just be that he's ready to send them to the principal's office, or to fire them if necessary. But he knows when somebody is messing with him and he won't stand for it.

    Question, what does your friendly authority figure do when somebody challenges his authority? He can't say "Oh gosh guys, come on now let's all be friends." Ultimately authority is dominance, the capability to dominate. That requires working from a position of strength, not weakness. A weak leader means the entire group is doomed.

    As Jordan Peterson said in one of his Biblical lectures, the phrase "The meek shall inherit the earth" was somewhat misinterpreted. It shouldn't really have been meek, but rather those who know how to use the sword but choose not to until necessary.

    So yes, I agree it's nice to have a friendly calm authority figure, and that can work as long as everybody is behaving, but he better be capable of doing whatever is necessary as soon as it becomes necessary. Otherwise he's a false authority figure, and that's extremely dangerous.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I've observed many times that everybody is relieved to have a strong authority figure, especially the class clowns and bullies. Class clowns and bullies are either spoiled brats with overly permissive parents who never disciplined them, or they have a really strong parent who does discipline them, but they challenge everybody else, and if someone fails the test then it's going to be endless chaos for everybody. The bullies and clowns can't seem to help themselves, they're going to pull their crap if they can. It's basically a compulsion. But I've seen the change in them when they run up against a strong leader who puts them in their place. There's a relief that their wild nature is now under control. I think they hate any authority figure who can't or won't do that, and they'll make sure everyone suffers for it.

    It's strange, but sometimes the bullies and clowns, if properly disciplined, become the best people in the group. They can have more chutzpah than the rest, many of whom are boring twits. And as long as they know they can't get away with any hijinx, they become funny and powerful personalities. Some of them, not all. Some are little psychopaths or sociopaths or just incorrigible troublemakers, but a significant number of them are actually powerful and domineering personalities who have that need to challenge anybody they see as weak.

    And when thinking about authority figures, it's how they perform against this kind of people you must take into account. If there's nobody like that around you almost don't need an authority figure.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    And I should add—of course a Marine drill instructor is a very special kind of case. He's not only an authority figure to a bunch of tough unruly slobs who need to be whipped into Marines, but he's also breaking them down to the core and some would say brainwashing programming them. That's why all the insulting. And that wouldn't be necessary in any other kind of situation.
     
  19. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    An @Xoic , I do believe there's a distinction between driving people and leading them. Being the baddest in the room and capable of beating the crap out of any dissenters may put someone in charge but does not a leader make. Brutalising people into doing your bidding is not leadership. Compliance is not equivalent to voluntary sacrifice that a true leader can elicit.

    While I'm at it, I'd also disagree with that bit about the Harvard professor getting real in the hood. In my experience, the thugs will have far greater regard for the dude with his elbow patches who respects them enough not to adopt a different persona to fit in.

    Other than that, fully on board with your observations.:agreed:
     
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  20. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Lol I probably went too far with some of that.

    Did you ever see a show called The Dog Whisperer? The host, Caesar Milan, keeps saying that if you're not the pack leader with your dog, then the dog will take that position, and then you have no hope of getting it under control.

    It's instinctive with dogs, just as it is with people. Most people won't push for pack leader status, but there's often going to be that one jerk who does. If the supposed leader isn't dominant enough to assert leadership, then whoever is more dominant will do it.

    And with that I'm done on this topic.
     
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  21. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    My personal leadership style:
    upload_2021-5-21_15-44-14.png
     
  22. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    That might be the reason we're in a disagreement! I never wanted to imply friendly; more formal than anything. Here's a timestamped reference for a situation like that perfectly handled by a person of authority. Naturally, the officer could have screamed at the man "HOW DARE YOU EVEN QUESTION ME BOY?!" or even slapped him across the face - the character is in a position to do both. But - in the presence of the /other/ character in the scene, that wouldn't have flied. And he had to demonstrate his air of authority. A simple question, an answer and handled. No friendliness, no shouting. Another good example here.

    Can you remove a coat like that? :cool:
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  23. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    @Lazaares Well, in both of those examples the troublemaker relented immediately. In Inglorious Bastards he was mildly impudent for a moment but complied completely with only the slightest of implications from his superior. And in the other one the king gave him the 'do not f*ck with me boy' look, and as soon as the woman stood up the boy just meekly walked away with her. It's because when the king gives that look he knows you don't test him farther or it's off with your head.

    When I said something about knowing the authority figure will kick your ass above, I didn't mean necessarily physically (I guess I used the wrong terminology). It COULD be physical, in certain circumstances, but I just meant they know he won't put up with any crap.

    Oh, and @B.E. Nugent said something about being false, acting like somebody you're not. Completely agreed! You cannot be an effective authority figure while pretending to be somebody else. You need to be exactly who you authentically are, or they'll smell it instantly and you're done. You need to be naturally dominant.

    There's a thing I wrote up before and deleted before I posted it, but I keep thinking about it, and I think I need to we-write it. It should explain exactly what I'm talking about. I'll pop it up here in a bit.
     
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  24. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    To set this up—when I'm thinking about something (like in this case authority figures) I like to go all the way to the extremes to find the parameters. In this case one extreme is there are no troublemakers and everything goes fine. The other extreme is you get one of the worst kind of troublemakers. Or worse yet several of them.

    The worst kind of troublemaker:
    A punk-ass teenager or young man who gets beat up all the time by his mom, dad or big brother. This changes the brain. Such a person will not respect words or kindness etc, they understand only brutality and power.


    There's a scene later in the movie where we see exactly why the bully does what he does. His big brother shows up pushing him around and calling him a girl, exactly what he does to Owen. The creators of the movie understand how the cycle of bullying often works.

    As long as a teacher or some authority figure is threatening enough to them they'll behave, but if there's a weakling in charge it's open season. Kids like this can be sent to the principal's office, detention, suspension, even expelled, and it won't affect their behavior. There's only one thing that will, and that's literally getting their ass beat. Physically in a case like this.

    When I was in school paddling was still allowed, and it was rarely ever done, only to the worst offenders. And once it was over, the kid was totally different for at least a month or two, if not permanently. It humbles them. It's the only way they know they're not the pack leader.

    In my shop class there was this smartass punk who kept smarting off to the teachers. It was general shop, we'd move every six weeks through wood shop, welding, auto shop, etc. When we were out in the welding shop building, a little ways away from the main school, the teacher was a thick little treestump named Mister Simms. One day this kid stood up and was essentially threatening him, like"What're you gonna do if I don't listen to you?"

    Simms shoved him so hard several desks flew aside and he slid across the floor and lay there in a huddled heap crying. After that he was a totally changed person. The embarrassment only gradually faded, but he never again smarted off or bullied anybody in the class. In fact after a few more class sessions he was almost an exemplary student.

    Of course, with pretty much any other kind of troublemaker, physical ass-beatage is probably not required. But you will get those punks every now and then, and it's literally the only thing they'll respond to. If somebody steps up and gives them what they need, it changes them and they settle down completely. And you can see it in their behavior—there's actually a sort of relief. I think they hate anybody who lets them run wild, and they hate themselves when they do it. It's like an addiction. In a sense they're actually begging for somebody to stand up like their dad (or whoever) does at home and put them in their place, otherwise they're going to disrupt everything all the time.

    But as I said, that's only worst-case scenario. Most people will respond like the people in your clips did to just a stern look.
     
  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Way, way out there
    Also, I guarantee you, in both of your clips @Lazaares the smartass knew if he pushed any farther it was absolutely game over. Those were both strong authority figures who were ready and willing to kick some ass in an instant. Either by sentencing the kid to the dungeon, or court-marshaling the wayward officer or whatever is appropriate. One more word from either of them and they knew they were done.
     

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