You explained what I was trying to say a lot better than I did! That's what I am trying to do, have the events in the past told as another story alongside the main one and reveal the information in the parallel story at the right points to fit with the main one.
Get in the shoes of a reader. How much do you want to know? Is it actually interesting? By all means, I think you should never dump a load of information just for the sake of dumping it, that is, having it somewhere. What I think is even worse is trying to fit the information in odd, unnatural sounding ways. If it's really that essential, just do it and get on with the story. Later on, as you revise, it'll be easier to see if the information could spread differently. I do think a reader can suck up a bit of dump, anyway, once in a while. Just don't force or exaggerate it.
Don't even give the reader all he or she wants. Keep the reader hungry. The problem with infodumping isn't about how the information is delivered, although som,e ways are certainly more painful to trudge through than others. The problem is really the author's insistence that the reader needs to know all that stuff up front, or at all for that matter.
Well, I disagree that the only reason something should be included in a novel is if the reader 'needs' to know it in order to understand the plot. There are also things we include in novels purely to add depth to the reader's understanding, add interest and texture and realism. I'd never advocate paring back a novel so much that the only inclusions were those strictly necessary to understanding the what when and where.
That isn't what I said. Background information isn't where depth comes from in any case. Depth comes from the character resolving dilemmas and conflicts. If something contributes materially to the story, yes, find a way to introduce it, at the time it is most effective. 95% of the "important information' delivered in information dumps has no real relevance to the story at hand. Leave it out, and the story doesn't suffer one iota. In fact, leaving it out makes the story better.
I don't think that;s what Cogito means. Though since I shouldn't speak for him, I'll say that it's not what _I_ would mean if I said "keep the reader hungry". I see "hungry" as being related to "appetite". You don't want to eat unless you're hungry, unless you have an appetite, right? So don't give the reader information that he has no appetite for. The reader should receive information when he wants it, when getting it gives him a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction or discovery. He should only receive it when he cares, and ideally he should figure it out himself from events, rather than having it handed to him in a schoolteacher-lecture sort of phrasing. As an example, I wouldn't want to read the schoolteacher lecture: Emily and her mother had a difficult relationship. Her mother, a beautiful and often charming woman, was raised by dysfunctional parents, and as a result, she had a passive-aggressive style in dealing with members of her family and other people close to her. She often criticized Emily, but in an indirect way that allowed her to disclaim any responsibility for the criticism. I'd _much_ rather read: Mrs. Jones peered into the mirror as she inserted her second pearl earring. Fluffing her hair, she looked at the reflection of Emily, who stood behind her. "Dear, is that what you're going to wear?" The second example tells me what I need to know. It doesn't tell me about Mrs. Jones' childhood, blah blah blah, but if that character was just introduced, I don't _want_ to know that yet. I don't want to know it until I get invested in Mrs. Jones, either because I like her or I hate her. Then I might care about an explanation for her oddities; if you explain them to me right now I'll just be bored and feel condescended to. I'll be forced to eat, when I have no appetite. ChickenFreak
ChickenFreak makes the most important point here, in my opinion. You have to make the reader care enough to learn what you're telling them. My biggest problem with the Song of Ice and Fire series, which I love otherwise, is that we are given a ton of information at the beginning. It's about places and characters we don't know and have no feelings for yet, and we do not know why or how this is relevant, and so taking it all in becomes difficult and the information is boring. What I did with Game of Thrones was that I gave up reading it pretty early on, then I watched the TV series, and thought that it was brilliant. So I returned to the books, and the information was actually very interesting since I knew who all the characters were, but it should have been given at a much later point.
I agree info dumps have no place in a novel. But the information contained in them might do, and that's where I disagree with you, Coggy. it's not a case of 'leaving out all the information in an infodump makes the novel better' - that, in my opinion, is a gross gernalisation unworthy of any semi intelligent writer. It's more a case of 'leaking the information in when it is required and in a natural and interesting manner' that makes the novel better.
Often enough, eating makes you want more than not eating. They say you can't just eat one potato chip. But if you don't have a potato chip at all, you're more likely to squash cravings for them. I think the same applies to a reader. If I am keeping the reader hungry, I gotta give them SOMETHING that they want. Giving them a little bit at a time will leave them hungry. And I disagree that infodumps contain irrelevant info or that the story would be "better" without it. It's just the delivery of that info, IMO, that can make it a good or bad part of a story. If it's interesting, the reader will likely eat it up, regardless of what other labels you slap on it.
That's rather the way I've handled it thus far. Wow... I'm amazed at all the different viewpoints and approaches this post has brought forth! @ChickenFreak - I always love your posts... you have such a fertile mind! You could write a whole book just on your detailed and entertaining examples. This thread has given me a great deal of food for thought.
